Any Intentionally dropped ball?

Discussion in 'Ask the Umpire' started by Arrgh, Mar 9, 2018.

  1. Arrgh

    Arrgh Addicted to Softballfans

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2007
    Messages:
    684
    Likes Received:
    0
    With less than 2 outs, runner at 1B, or runners at 1B and 3B. A fly ball or a line drive is intentionally dropped by a fielder, so they can make a double play.

    What should an umpire call?

    Thanks.
     
  2. Duriisimo

    Duriisimo Aguilucho

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2005
    Messages:
    6,527
    Likes Received:
    18
    Dead ball, batter out. Runners stay
     
  3. irishmafia

    irishmafia Addicted to Softballfans

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2010
    Messages:
    4,626
    Likes Received:
    101
    Depends on the rule set and what it defines as a IDB
     
  4. Joker

    Joker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2006
    Messages:
    7,726
    Likes Received:
    1,475
    you need to clarify the association and what you mean by intentionally dropped. did he have it in his glove then drop it? did he let it drop? did he guide it to the ground?
     
    blakcherry329 likes this.
  5. mav3134

    mav3134 Manager

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2012
    Messages:
    69
    Likes Received:
    2
    With less than 2 force outs on base, if the fielder touched the ball before it hit the ground and in the opinion of the umpire he intentionally dropped it then he can call an out/dead ball. There are different interpretations out there about if the ball hits inside the glove/the outside of the glove etc, but it's pretty much always covered by the old "in the umpires discretion" so if he thinks you dropped it on purpose he can call it.

    However, if the ball hits the ground without being touched by any fielder at all then it is a live ball and can be played as such. So an infielder can back up a bit and let the ball hit the ground first and then pick it up and play it. Not really ever going to happen that way on a line drive, but on a high fly ball it could. That is why you always run it out as a batter if there's no infield fly rule in effect!
     
  6. Arrgh

    Arrgh Addicted to Softballfans

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2007
    Messages:
    684
    Likes Received:
    0
    It's a church co-ed rec league. We like to keep it recreational and fun, and don't want unsportsmanlike behaviour. Last year a team played aggressively, including blatantly intentionally dropped balls to get double plays. So we are discussing what to put in the rules to deal with this.

    Calling dead ball and out, does make it a simpler rule, but it also gives the defense an out without making any play, and no penalty for the behaviour.

    One idea discussed was to call delayed dead ball, let the plays go through, then negate the leading out if out(s) were made. That's to make sure the team doing the intentional drop does not gain something.
     
    #6 Arrgh, Mar 9, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2018
  7. Joker

    Joker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2006
    Messages:
    7,726
    Likes Received:
    1,475
    well we can't tell you until you explain it better
     
  8. AH23

    AH23 Addicted to Softballfans

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2004
    Messages:
    551
    Likes Received:
    50
    A ball can't be dropped unless it is caught. Merely guiding the ball to the ground is not dropping the ball. That is the ASA/USA ruling. RS#30 in last year's book. Basically if they stop the momentum of the ball and then release it, then you have your drop.
     
  9. etnstudios

    etnstudios Addicted to Softballfans

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2012
    Messages:
    3,980
    Likes Received:
    432
    if you're looking at putting something extra in the league rules, just put in that the umpire can toss anyone at his discretion for being an *******
     
  10. Joe500

    Joe500 Starting Player

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2014
    Messages:
    80
    Likes Received:
    4
    I agree with AH23. A batted ball cannot be considered the "intentional drop" unless it first satisfies the definition of a catch. USSSA runner(s) on 1B, 1B & 2B, 1B, 2B & 3B, OR 1B & 3B with less than 2 outs; ball is dead immediately, the batter is out and all base runners return to the base occupied at the time of the pitch.
     
  11. blakcherry329

    blakcherry329 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2009
    Messages:
    5,255
    Likes Received:
    309
    Doesn't "guiding the ball to the ground" stop the momentum? If it's a pop up and the fielder is underneath the ball, if it touches his/her glove, it's going to get called an out, 9 times out of 10. The only way to get around that is to take the chance and let it drop to the ground before touching it, imo.
     
  12. Joker

    Joker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2006
    Messages:
    7,726
    Likes Received:
    1,475
    it changes the direction of the momentum
     
  13. AH23

    AH23 Addicted to Softballfans

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2004
    Messages:
    551
    Likes Received:
    50
    No, "guiding the ball" doesn't "Stop" the ball, it slows it down but doesn't stop it. Is it a BS move? Yes. But that's the rule. Remember, easy way to avoid the double play is having the batter run to 1B.
     
  14. blakcherry329

    blakcherry329 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2009
    Messages:
    5,255
    Likes Received:
    309
    Ok, it may not stop the ball, but it changes the momentum and most umps will call BS and the out.
     
  15. Joker

    Joker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2006
    Messages:
    7,726
    Likes Received:
    1,475
    not if they know the rules for ASA/USA. it is 100% allowed in that association
     
  16. dunkky

    dunkky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2017
    Messages:
    636
    Likes Received:
    225
    this must be a very soft liner. when i play infield, I thought about this too. Just don't catch it but reflect it to ground for possible double play.
     
  17. hitless45

    hitless45 Addicted to Softballfans

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2009
    Messages:
    3,552
    Likes Received:
    233
    Intentionally letting a ball hit the ground to help turn a double play is a douche move in a church/rec league imo.. A soft line drive ehh maybe but a popup that a fielder is camped under (NO) again especially in this type of league (church/rec/fun) tourney play if/where allowed is all good..

    Most of our umps will call (bs))dead ball forced runner gets a base batter gets his, they do it to avoid potential unnecessary injuries..
     
  18. Dogue

    Dogue Evil Genius

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2010
    Messages:
    1,999
    Likes Received:
    239
    It's bush league stuff, but if the batter runs it out it shouldn't matter. For a church league just allow umpire descretion on a caught ball. Plenty of line drives and pop ups come out of gloves in rec/church leagues that are not on purpose.
     
    Arrgh likes this.
  19. irishmafia

    irishmafia Addicted to Softballfans

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2010
    Messages:
    4,626
    Likes Received:
    101
    The only thing bush about it is the batter's failure to get a clean base hit. Otherwise, it is heads-up ball. If you don't like it, play better.
     
  20. Dogue

    Dogue Evil Genius

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2010
    Messages:
    1,999
    Likes Received:
    239
    It's a co-ed church league...there are some unwritten rules you play by; don't throw to 1st from outfield, don't play full speed to get a young kid out if you're winning, and don't intentionally drop the ball to turn 2. Most umps know the difference and will just call it a caught ball anyway so no big deal.
     
    blakcherry329, Arrgh and hitless45 like this.
  21. Joker

    Joker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2006
    Messages:
    7,726
    Likes Received:
    1,475
    this site needs a church league mat ball ump your own games section so these people don't get offended when they get a real answer
     
  22. AH23

    AH23 Addicted to Softballfans

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2004
    Messages:
    551
    Likes Received:
    50
    SMH, the guys that "liked" Dogue's post above would be the same guys pitching a fit if the same situation happened in their men's league game. Rules are the rules guys. There is NO rule that says if the umpire knows better to just call it a caught ball. I've been playing ball for over 40 years. Used to play a heavy competitive tourney schedule. I know the game. And I'm telling you, I'm not bailing out the lazy preacher who doesn't think he needs to jog to 1B. Does it suck when the choir leader gets thrown out from RF? Yep, but maybe, if they're that slow, they should hit to left.

    The one's I'd like to call out are the E tourney players in church league who hit the line drive to the girl at 2B or RF and then bust ass around the bases and act like they've won the World Series for their inside the park HR. But I can't call them out because I know better, because there isn't a rule that says I can.
     
  23. blakcherry329

    blakcherry329 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2009
    Messages:
    5,255
    Likes Received:
    309
    It's not about "rules are rules". It's about making a mockery of the game. And if the the runner runs, the point is moo(Joey Tribiani:D), and the fielder will catch the ball. All I'm saying is umps will call bs if you don't sell it well enough. More often than not, if you are camped under it and it hits your glove, as you guide it to the ground, it will be called an out. I've played just as long as you have and it's not about bailing out a lazy player. I'm just telling you what I've witnessed.

    You can definitely call someone an A-hole for hitting at girls that aren't very good or stuff like that. Why not? There's no rule but they are DBags, anyway.
     
    hitless45 likes this.
  24. Joker

    Joker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2006
    Messages:
    7,726
    Likes Received:
    1,475
    no it's not, shut up with the mockery of game crap
     
  25. blakcherry329

    blakcherry329 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2009
    Messages:
    5,255
    Likes Received:
    309
    That's what the umps say. I don't care. If the runner doesn't run he deserves to get doubled up.
     
    #25 blakcherry329, Mar 14, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2018
  26. NCASAUmp

    NCASAUmp My backpack’s got jets

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    11,625
    Likes Received:
    180
    Any umpire who starts "citing" the "mockery of the game rule" is full of **** 99.999% of the time. Whenever you hear an umpire say that, be prepared to tell them you're playing under protest, because chances are high they're making up a ruling that doesn't exist in the rules.

    As others said before, it's going to depend on which ruleset you're playing under. In USA Softball, the ball must be legally caught, then immediately dropped for it to be declared an intentionally dropped ball. In USSSA, the ball must only hit the pocket of the glove (no mention of it being caught). In NSA, it must be caught, or that the fielder must "let it fall," whatever that means.
     
  27. irishmafia

    irishmafia Addicted to Softballfans

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2010
    Messages:
    4,626
    Likes Received:
    101
    Talk about bull****.......this qualifies
     
  28. irishmafia

    irishmafia Addicted to Softballfans

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2010
    Messages:
    4,626
    Likes Received:
    101
    Not a real umpire
     
  29. EAJuggalo

    EAJuggalo Addicted to Softballfans

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2009
    Messages:
    1,055
    Likes Received:
    34
    Do you have a rule cite the USSSA interpretation? I've always been told that guiding it to the ground, hitting it down with a glove or just letting it drop can be ruled as an intentional drop.
     
    blakcherry329 likes this.
  30. NCASAUmp

    NCASAUmp My backpack’s got jets

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    11,625
    Likes Received:
    180
    Sorry for the delayed response. I took a new job, and can't surf the forums like I used to during working hours.

    I seem to remember either a case play or a test question from USSSA that specifically referenced the ball hitting the pocket of the glove. It's been a while, but maybe I can find it.

    But allow me to be blunt here. It's been my experience that USSSA tends to make **** up as they go. Talk with one UIC, you get told one thing. Talk with another UIC, get told another. Ask a question to their national rules interpreter, and the answer you get completely flies in the face of what's written in the book, plain as day, right there in black and white.

    So even if I do find the citation, don't count on it sticking. I'm sure that if it happens during Worlds and some key team fusses loudly enough, whoever's in charge will make something up just to keep them playing U-Trip.
     

Share This Page