Need Feedback ASAP - Mike Ultra II in USSSA Play

Discussion in 'Ask the Umpire' started by AUsoftball, Aug 27, 2018.

  1. AUsoftball

    AUsoftball Supreme Commander of All

    Joined:
    May 2, 2006
    Messages:
    1,159
    Likes Received:
    2
    Good Evening,

    I would like your feedback as we played a championship game this evening and the other team was found to be using an Mike Ultra II, the Ultra II they carried had the 2000 & 2004 ASA certification stamp. As a pitcher, my biggest concern is my safety, as a season Ultra II bat can produce serious velocity, and could cause a major injury to a player/pitcher. I have looked for an approved USSSA bat list, and cant find anything, and the Ultra II does not carry the required USSSA certification mark.....therefore is it legal for USSSA play?

    I know there is no issue with using an ASA bat for USSSA play, but since the Ultra II is banned for ASA play regardless of certification stamps, and since the bat does not carry a USSSA stamp, where does it fall?

    Your feedback is greatly appreciated

    Jeff
     
  2. Joker

    Joker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2006
    Messages:
    8,450
    Likes Received:
    1,659
    no ultra or ultra 2 was made that had both the 2000 and 2004 stamps on them. also common sense says if it has no stamp it's not legal
     
    hitless45 likes this.
  3. AUsoftball

    AUsoftball Supreme Commander of All

    Joined:
    May 2, 2006
    Messages:
    1,159
    Likes Received:
    2
    We were informed that the bat was sent back to Miken to receive the 2004 stamp. I did see both stamps on the bat, but since the bat did not carry a USSSA stamp, I protested the use of it.
     
  4. Joker

    Joker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2006
    Messages:
    8,450
    Likes Received:
    1,659
    they are liars and cheaters
     
  5. bird25

    bird25 34/30 Club #25

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2004
    Messages:
    12,098
    Likes Received:
    464
    Doesn’t have the usssa thumbprint, therefore not legal
     
    AH23 and hitless45 like this.
  6. smoke

    smoke 50AAA USA National Champs

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,760
    Likes Received:
    111
    No UII should have a 2004 ASA stamp
    SMOKE
     
    DonWilliams and SammyJaxxx like this.
  7. irishmafia

    irishmafia Addicted to Softballfans

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2010
    Messages:
    4,719
    Likes Received:
    132
    Then you might want your colon checked for lung cancer, 'cause someone is blowing some serious smoke up your ass
     
  8. AH23

    AH23 Addicted to Softballfans

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2004
    Messages:
    581
    Likes Received:
    55
    I'm so confused, he states it's USSSA but keeps asking about ASA stamps......
     
    Donger73 likes this.
  9. Hiltz

    Hiltz Oozing with... something.

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2010
    Messages:
    2,213
    Likes Received:
    989
    Maybe 2 ASA stamps = 1 USSSA stamp?
     
  10. EAJuggalo

    EAJuggalo Addicted to Softballfans

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2009
    Messages:
    1,076
    Likes Received:
    35
    As of 2015, if it does not have the USSSA thumbprint stamp on it, it is not legal for sanctioned play. End of story. Prior to that the U2 was on the banned list.
     
  11. ilyk2win

    ilyk2win Addicted to Softballfans

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2009
    Messages:
    9,137
    Likes Received:
    94
    "Senior" ball maybe?
     
  12. hitsone

    hitsone Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2005
    Messages:
    3,795
    Likes Received:
    23
    It is on the ASA banned list, it does not have any USSSA stamp therefore it is a non approved bat, batter is out and ejected.Coach is ejected also. If there is noone to replace the ejected player the game is over. Offended team is given a 7-0 win.

    Having said all that, it applies to "sanctioned" USSSA events. For league play leagues may have their own bat lists or bat qualifications that supercede USSSA rules and couild allow bats without the USSSA stamp. Check your league rules. By league rules the batter may just have to change bats or may be an auto out for the rest of the game. Your coach should make sure that all players have a copy of the league rules.

    And yes it is on the SSUSA approved list for senior play.
    You were right to be worried about it's abilities. for years it was the bat that all the other senior bats were compared to
     
  13. AUsoftball

    AUsoftball Supreme Commander of All

    Joined:
    May 2, 2006
    Messages:
    1,159
    Likes Received:
    2
    The league I play in allows ASA bats, and USSSA bats. ASA and USSSA bat use was approved by the league commissioner some time ago. To make a long story short, the player caught attempting to use the Ultra II got very defensive when I called him on it, and swore that the bat was approved by the league commissioner (It turned out that the commissioner never approved the bat, so the player falsified his approval). The umpire ruled in my favor and made the other team ditch the bat. The rest of the game was mayhem as there was constant issues coming back to the whole incident. From the sounds of things, the Ultra II may have had a 2000 ASA stamp, but should have never had a 2004 ASA stamp (it is possible that the bat was altered to add the 2004 ASA stamp, as a number of board members have stated that the ultra II never carried a 2004 ASA stamp, and no agency or Miken would place a 2004 ASA stamp on the bat). The other team has been warned that any additional bat issues will result in them being banned from any future league play indefinitely. Really bothers me that someone would place a person's safety at risk, all to hit the ball further.
     
    #13 AUsoftball, Sep 4, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2018
    bird25 likes this.
  14. NCASAUmp

    NCASAUmp My backpack’s got jets

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    11,667
    Likes Received:
    210
    You mean players LIE? :eek:
     
    baseballfrk806 and bird25 like this.
  15. EAJuggalo

    EAJuggalo Addicted to Softballfans

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2009
    Messages:
    1,076
    Likes Received:
    35
    Can I get a rule citation please? Under USSSA rule 7.2.B The batter is out once he hits the ball with an illegal bat. There is no mention of ejection unless the bat is altered, and the coach is only ejected in youth play for the use of an altered bat. Also there is no provision for a forfeit due to ejection without a sub unless you are playing Major, AA, A or the ejection brings the team below 9 players.
     
  16. ETDave

    ETDave Old School

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2006
    Messages:
    2,449
    Likes Received:
    25
  17. 96packers

    96packers OG Titletown

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2006
    Messages:
    38,777
    Likes Received:
    103
    Surprised that someone would actually cheat. Have also heard rumors of guys using a "SHAVED BAT". Never heard of such things and can't imagine a softball would cheat to improve himself!!


    :rolleyes: D I C K S
     
  18. Country469

    Country469 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2016
    Messages:
    16,851
    Likes Received:
    1,259
  19. Country469

    Country469 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2016
    Messages:
    16,851
    Likes Received:
    1,259
    The Umpire is responsible for the bats being checked before the game OP..........this is where the whole issue starts and ends
     
  20. ShortYellowBus

    ShortYellowBus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2017
    Messages:
    1,148
    Likes Received:
    914
    Just the idea that the manufacturers would print two ASA stamps on a bat is ridiculous.

    This is from three weeks ago. I hope it’s all sorted out by now.
     
  21. BigWhiffa

    BigWhiffa Underwear Researcher

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,949
    Likes Received:
    173
    there are Ultras that came out like 5 years ago that had new asa stamps on them no ultra II has teh 2004 stamp on it.
     
  22. Country469

    Country469 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2016
    Messages:
    16,851
    Likes Received:
    1,259
    Well to be fair, USSSA had some Eastons where you could send em back and get a new stamp etched in the bat and it was fine. I dont remember the model #, so the idea a bat could carry two stamps is not completely foreign, throw in average league guys don't know this **** and here we are.
     
    DonWilliams likes this.
  23. Hiltz

    Hiltz Oozing with... something.

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2010
    Messages:
    2,213
    Likes Received:
    989
    There were a few models released just before the new stamp came into play (SCN18, SCN19, SCN20BW off the top of my head). The first wave was released with no thumbprint, then USSSA mandated the new stamp. Easton got the bats certified under the new standard and etched the thumbprint on their remaining unreleased inventory. As far as I know they never took any used bats back to etch the stamp.
     
  24. EAJuggalo

    EAJuggalo Addicted to Softballfans

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2009
    Messages:
    1,076
    Likes Received:
    35
    There is no mandate to check bats before a game in USSSA. In championship play, either the bats are tested and buckets are used. Or bats are examined by the umpire whenever they feel the need or the opposing team questions one. I usually do the first game of a tournament, but at Worlds last year I looked at probably 5 bats the whole weekend. All for sounding a little off, but nothing I could definitively say there was something wrong with them.
    I believe the SCN17BH was also on the list. All were bats that hadn't made it past the distributors. At least from what I have been told. Caused quite a stir when I threw a guy out for using one the first time. Then had to apologize when I saw him a month later.
     
  25. Country469

    Country469 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2016
    Messages:
    16,851
    Likes Received:
    1,259

    well yeah the check at that point is being done at the buckets and not getting into play if not legal to begin with, so essentially the same thing or better
     
  26. oppo

    oppo Coach

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2010
    Messages:
    1,692
    Likes Received:
    1
    Illegal and non-approved are not the same
     
  27. EAJuggalo

    EAJuggalo Addicted to Softballfans

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2009
    Messages:
    1,076
    Likes Received:
    35
    An illegal bat is defined as any bat that does not meet the requirement/specifications of Rule 2, Sec. 2.
    Rule 2, Sec. 2, Part C, Subsection 1 states:
    1. Bats will be legal for USSSA sanctioned play only if the bat is manufactured
    by an approved USSSA bat manufacturer on the USSSA approved bat
    manufacturer list (kept by USSSA and published and made available by means
    including, but not limited to, the USSSA website) and has the new USSSA
    mark (kept by USSSA and published and made available by means including,
    but not limited to, the USSSA website) on the taper of the bat. Wood bats made
    on the approved USSSA bat manufacturer list shall be legal without regard to
    this section E.2.
    So any bat that is non-approved is Illegal. Nowhere is Non-Approved in the rulebook.
     
  28. AUsoftball

    AUsoftball Supreme Commander of All

    Joined:
    May 2, 2006
    Messages:
    1,159
    Likes Received:
    2
    Lots of discussion, thanks for all the information. Here is the update: I have spoken with both the regional director of the USSSA, and he has provided in writing that the bat was not sanctioned for USSSA play. I also was able to provide a copy of the ASA banned bat list, with a email from one of the directors of ASA that the bat was not approved for ASA play as well. Third, after a great deal of discussion, I was able to get Miken to provide an email stating that they never produced a Miken Ultra II bat with two ASA stamps. They did state that one time the original Miken Ultra II carried a 2000 ASA stamp, but when the ASA went to the new 2004 ASA stamp, the bat did not pass the bat speed test, thus no 2004 ASA stamp. They also confirmed that if the bat used carried two ASA stamps (2000 & 2004) then it was highly likely that the bat had been modified. All of this information was sent to our team captain, who then presented it to the league director. The director is currently deciding on the next course of action. Many thanks to the folks at ASA, USSSA, and Miken for helping to address this topic, as the issue of safety was the biggest priority here, it is senseless from someone to get hurt from an illegal/altered bat.
     
  29. SammyJaxxx

    SammyJaxxx Starting Player

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2014
    Messages:
    279
    Likes Received:
    55
    there is definitely something fishy about that bat.
    that bat is sick. There plenty out there being swung that have been repainted, re-stickered etc.
     
  30. RNRPLZ

    RNRPLZ Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2017
    Messages:
    59
    Likes Received:
    5
    What I see here clearly that ASA/USA Softball does an excellent job st keeping banned bats list current...USA/ASA All the way
     

Share This Page