New(est) DM Horween RV23?

Discussion in 'Fielding Gloves Discussion' started by ANNASDAD, Oct 11, 2017.

  1. ANNASDAD

    ANNASDAD The Veteran

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    There's been some talk around here that the newest DM horween RV23 isn't up to par with their older offerings, I know NYC has commented on this several times.......with the (4) DM exclusives I've bought before, I can't imagine that the newest RV wouldn't be a very nice glove, even with a little thinner leather.

    Has anyone here owned a J-Tan and the newest RV23 together that could make a comparison? My J-Tan RV that I sold to a board member here was a very nice glove, no issues whatsoever! I'm still thinking hard about a custom NP but I miss not having a RV web around the house.
     
  2. Joker

    Joker Well-Known Member

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    i would ignore what NYC says
     
  3. huntaholic21

    huntaholic21 Addicted to Softballfans

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    I haven't had one of the new dms horween gloves in hand yet, but comparing the jtan rv23 to the sbf pro207. I like the leather on the 207 much better and I think you will as well.
     
  4. ANNASDAD

    ANNASDAD The Veteran

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    And having said that, wouldn't you think the horween 207 and the new RV would have exactly the same leather? Or very close?
     
  5. huntaholic21

    huntaholic21 Addicted to Softballfans

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    I can't imagine it being much different. I think the people who were disappointed with it were hoping for the older horween leather.
     
  6. beeblebobble

    beeblebobble Starting Player

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    Having had old horween, j tan, and new horween pro1000s from DM, the new ones aren't that bad and are very similar to the sbf horween exclusives, not as nice as the old horween as we all agree, but definitely nicer than the j-tan version. For me personally the biggest knock is the newer dark tan deer tan linings aren't as nice as the previous tan DT linings and a similar issue with the j-tan versions the welting doesn't seem as robust.
     
  7. bigmac25

    bigmac25 Extra Hitter

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    [​IMG]
    Keeping on the DMS topic, but a bit more general, I just put this up last night on IG for some DMS discussion.
    These are all the DMS i have or have had over the last couple years. FAR and away my favorites.
    I cant imagine being a glove collector with out DMS and what he has done for us glove heads.
    It led to a conversation with the guy who I had recently traded for the XPG3 with that left me wanting to bang my head against a wall lol.
    To me, its VERY obvious the 2010 - JapTan lines were the THICK and STIFF 'Baseball Glove ' Horween leather.
    From what has been posted both here and on GW, sadly (even though they dont seem to get worse) someone took a bath on the last release prior to the Jtan and thus a change was made. Whether it was DMS insisting something be done different, or Rawlings just changing things up to avoid issues, or even this leather not being available.... a change was made.
    Its great they 'gave the people what they want' so to speak, but I've had the 'new' SPT in hand and to me it was clear this isnt the same stuff as before the Jtan (although still nice).
    The gist of what drives me nuts is our opinions and thoughts to if the old and new stuff is the same.
    I say no way.
    He says his pro dept is the same as the old DMS stuff which is the same as the new stuff ( or same stuff i guess? lol)...
    The difference being, the old ones were made 'pro stiff' while the new ones arent.
    Of all things, this was backed up by a video of his glove squeeking.. which I find silly because bad laces make a glove squeek.
    I respect anyones opinion and am happy to listen - just back it up with some well thought out points.
    My pro dept happened to be from roughly the same time as his and was also ordered 'pro stiff'.
    I can emphatically say, this is NOT the same as the DMS stuff.
    He then doubled down and said his Rawlings rep told him the new horween TT2 and the SBF exclusives were made from a rejected batch of Horween that was not deemed 'thick enough/too soft' for Pro Dept standards.
    I take issue with SO many things with that statement.... but the obvious is why would Rawlings release a glove that had some fanfair as a return to horween with sub par materials? Then double down and make the SBF exclusives with the same sub standard leather?
    This makes ZERO sense to me. I've never met (not saying they arent out there) or spoken to a Rawlings rep who wanted to speculate on materials being used. They know their gloves - but didnt even pretend to know anything about the materials.
    I bring this up because I had a few people ask about the differences and didnt think it was right they were getting potentially incorrect info from someone thinking they know whats up.
    I wasnt even collecting at the time so I dont mean to come across as the end all be all.
    BUT, when taking what people relayed here about calling and getting info from DMS as well as even the things Bob shared about the process I cant see this being the case. We essentially agreed to disagree and in the end I'm just glad that the archives here, on GW, and VTG GF are searchable. Hopefully incorrect info isnt taken as gospel.
    I'm glad DMS tried making people happy. New ones seem pretty nice. Just from an oil standpoint alone however, it sure seems like different stuff to me....
     
    #7 bigmac25, Oct 11, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2017
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  8. ANNASDAD

    ANNASDAD The Veteran

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    Thanks bee!
     
  9. NYC

    NYC Part Time Player

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    Yes I have owned both the Jtan (2015) and I have the new 2017 horween rv23. The new horween is better. Not as good as the old batch horween but still better than retail Jtan. However my custom Jtan has better leather than the new batch horween. It's thicker, takes longer to break in, but still somehow soft to the touch. Custom Jtan> New batch horween, it's not even close.
     
  10. NYC

    NYC Part Time Player

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    Custom Jtan on the left, new batch horween o the right. As you can see the leather on the left is thicker, much better quality in my opinion. The Horween is just drier. Bigmac, this is what I meant when I said that just because it says Horween on the tannery building doesn't mean the leather is always better. The custom Jtan is pro issue quality stuff.
    IMG_2364.JPG
     
  11. huntaholic21

    huntaholic21 Addicted to Softballfans

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    I believe NYC on this. I've seen some really nice jtan customs Chad has posted on ig, that look nothing like the dms jtan. Just like not all horween is created equal, not all jtan is created equal.
     
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  12. MaverickAH

    MaverickAH Well-Known Member

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    Bigmac25,

    I don't know why what you wrote was so hard to read! It has sort of a rambling quality to it.......

    In any case, I'd like to make the following points:

    "Horween" is not a type of leather. It's a brand & a tannery. Now while the tanning process has a lot to do with the qualities of the end product, I would argue that an even more important factor is the quality of the beginning raw product the tannery receives.

    The origins of the beginning raw product is extremely important in these discussions. My belief is that over the past 30+ years, there has been a drastic reduction in the amount of true free range cattle hides. Free range cattle beef has the following provable benefits:
    • It is leaner - about 1/3 the fat
    • It is higher in conjugated linoleic acid - 3-5 times as much
    • It is higher in omega-3 fatty acids - 2-6 times as much
    • It is higher in vitamin E - 2-4 times as much
    • It is higher in beta-carotene
    It's not a stretch to think that this would also translate into thicker, stronger hides. This is the stuff of older, made in the USA Horween gloves. It's from fully matured cattle that have withstood the elements & the terrain. Sure, there will be visual imperfections in the leather but that's actually a good thing. Cattle raised in small confines & fed a processed diet with produce a leather with less visual imperfections & a more luxurious feel but it's just not the same. That's what we are seeing used for the majority of gloves these days.

    Now beyond the qualities of the raw product, I've recently discovered just how important the tanning process can be. Over the past year or so, I've picked up gloves from the same manufacturer. They're the same series & sourced from the same leather if I am to believe what I was told by said manufacturer. I have no reason to doubt them. The difference between the 2 gloves is the tanning process that the leather used for each glove when through. I wasn't given details about the individual processes. I was just told, same leather, different tanning.

    Both gloves are of very high quality. Glove A is very stiff & the leather is a bit more oil infused. Glove B is stiff beyond stiff & the leather is drier & definitely lighter feeling. Glove A is what is currently being produced & Glove B is more of what I'm guessing might be a potential next generation prototype. Glove A was thoroughly impressive but Glove B was like, "Holy ****!" Just a whole 'nother level......... Again, same leather.

    I don't think that it's feasible to get the same Horween leather of yesteryear but I do feel that it's possible to get a reasonable facsimile.
     
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  13. NYC

    NYC Part Time Player

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    Great post. Just from looking and feeling the leather, it's obvious to me that Rawlings uses better quality raw product for their customs and pro issues. I don't think I can ever go back to retail unless it's a pattern unavailable from the custom pro shop builder. I really wish we can get a PP rv23 made.
     
  14. davisrelacing

    davisrelacing The Other Guy

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    Fortunately for everyone, this is not true. Rawlings uses the same hides to cut retail, custom, and pro issue gloves. THERE ARE NO "PRO ISSUE" HIDES. Each hide is selected to meet the specifications Rawlings requires of their HOH or PP leather. Then, the retail, custom and pro issue palm pieces are cut from the top (spine) of the hide, zone 1. Retail palms are cut in the thinner area near the neck. Custom and pro issues are cut from the actual "heart" of the hide, the thick part near the rump. The leather at the rump is better because if it's location on the hide, not because it is cut from a better hide.
    Contact me or check my Instagram if you need pics.
    Dan
     
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  15. NYC

    NYC Part Time Player

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    I've been through a dozen retail HOHs and only 1 custom. But my custom is thicker than my retails. Maybe they use Mcdonalds cows for retail I don't know. Im holding a custom HOH and a retail HOH and the custom is without a doubt thicker and better. I also asked a former MLB player about a month ago about this very topic; if the pro issued gloves are better than retail gloves he said "Yes without a doubt the leather is better". Do you really think that the million gloves they send to ****'s every year is the same quality as a glove given to a pro?
     
  16. Joker

    Joker Well-Known Member

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    See post #2
     
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  17. davisrelacing

    davisrelacing The Other Guy

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    Maybe you misread my post.
     
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  18. NYC

    NYC Part Time Player

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    Whatever dude, all I know is custom and pro issues are better than retail.
     
  19. beeblebobble

    beeblebobble Starting Player

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    Which he explained in his post. And why you clearly mis-read it.
     
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  20. davisrelacing

    davisrelacing The Other Guy

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    ...and when you get a custom that's better than what a pro can get it's even better
     
  21. bigmac25

    bigmac25 Extra Hitter

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    Sorry, I was on my phone and after a paragraph you cant go back and see whats been written.
    Adding to the confusion, I was also recounting a conversation.
    Gist being, the guy was telling people the current DMS gloves and 2010-15 are the same.
    The difference is 'pro stiff'.

    Just in dryness alone its obvious things have changed a bit and I tried explaining this to no avail.
    Once again, its the belief that because his glove came from the Pro Dept rather than the Pro Shop - its better than everyone elses bc the Pros get the best of the best (sarcastic)
    If thats what he wants to believe - fine.
    The only reason I cared is someone championing this info is how incorrect info gets passed around and some folks think is fact.
    I'm just guessing someone took a bath on the crotch tear batch and a change to jtan was made.
    It changed back, but common sense leads me to guess steps were taken to avoid the tears.
    More oil seems like a starting point.
    The most asinine part of his argument is that his Rawlings Rep told him specifically the horween TT2s and SBF exclusives were made from bunk hides rejected for pro dept makes and were tossed off to these releases.
    I think thats just untrue for a variety of reasons.
    This person has been in the hobby for about a year and has some GREAT gloves.
    BUT - Just because they own some of the best SLCS pieces out there among others, dosent mean their knowledge automatically matches the collection... as is the case here.

    NYC, Im not sure what I said but you have mentioned a few times now that I dont like Jtan.
    That just isnt true. I LOVE the 1st SPT remakes. I LOVE my Jtan custom.
    That said, if you put the 1st wave of DMS tan Horween RV23 next to a DMS Jtan RV - I'll choose the 1st wave horween all day.
    I just love those gloves. My favorite series ever.
    Conversely, some guys dont. They are to brickish and take a while to break in. I get it.
    I dont really care about weight so anytime I have a choice between thick stiff horween or whatever leather you like that breaks in easier I take the former.
    The only stink I've made about Jtan is I'd heard a few reviews of people being disappointed with the 1st wave of the black RV's.
    I've never even owned one.
    I mean this respectfully, but please dont lump me in with the kiddos who like to play a game Jay likes to call "is this horween" lol.
    I'm open to liking a JTan glove more than a horween brand leather glove and wouldnt blindly pick based on the name "horween" as seems to be the purpose of the game.
    Dual Core is a great example. I wouldnt reccomend or choose that make just based on the company it originated from.

    This is all very specific and anyone outside of us glove heads would prob think its crazy, but as its being talked about I figured its appropriate.
    If you didnt read the above, the gist is I love the old DMS. I get why they changed - but i dont believe for a second the new ones are the same as the old ones 'minus pro stiff'
     
    #21 bigmac25, Oct 13, 2017 at 10:17 AM
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2017 at 10:40 AM
  22. bigmac25

    bigmac25 Extra Hitter

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    Great way to word it Dan!!
    It occurred to me, could it be possible this is such a large misconception because 'tan horween' can only be ordered as a custom by pros at the moment? Its also important to note that the way I'm reading this there is indeed a QUALITY difference in that its a 'better' piece of leather for any custom but that the hides themselves are the same. So, maybe 2 people can be trying to get the same point across but they havent communicated well? Hopefully this post clears it up.
     
  23. davisrelacing

    davisrelacing The Other Guy

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    It's the same hide, the neck portion being thinner and the butt portion being thicker. Of course, each piece created after stamping that is used to make a glove is skived to an even thickness as well. I could see that being another place where that skiving thickness being thicker for customs and pro issues.
     
  24. NYC

    NYC Part Time Player

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    I asked you before if you would pick horween over Jtan just because of the name "Horween" and you said yes (maybe it was sarcasm). Then I said that not every horween is the good stuff and there are many Jtans out there that put horween to shame. Especially my custom Jtan over the new batch of horween.
    Davis I get it, retail gets the neck portion and pro/customs get the good part. To me I don't care if it comes from the same cow, the thicker portion is better quality than the thin.
    We are probably asking too much since we are a drop in the bucket of sales for Rawlings, but the thick part of the glove, with horween lining throughout is what I want. If not I'll take a custom or a PP.
     
  25. Felks32

    Felks32 Addicted to Softballfans

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    I'm with you I think i'd take a custom JT over the newer horween batch too. Now that's solely based on the fact that I have a custom JT and I did not like the leather on those new tt2's.

    Now...did the sbf 207 and 206 come from the retail part of the cow or the custom part of the cow, LOL.
     
  26. Rous

    Rous Addicted to Softballfans

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    Do you know what it is skived to? 5.5oz? 6oz?

    Even if they skive to the same thickness, that doesn't mean two pieces are the same. If you have thinned down lace you know that leather can be soft and spongy or really stiff and dense. So even if two pieces are split to 5 oz (5/64"), one can be super stiff and dense and the other maybe 80% stiff and sense, and that last 1/64" is spongy/fuzzy.

    In any case, I think I have been made an even bigger fan of custom Rawlings now!!!
     
  27. Soxfan8

    Soxfan8 Starting Player

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    Good info here.

    Back on the RV topic, how is the center of the web connected? I see a lace running through it, but I can't figure out where it goes even while holding the glove. Is it permanent (and the web otherwise is laced just like a normal single post)?
     
  28. davisrelacing

    davisrelacing The Other Guy

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    Don't dare cut that central lace! It is sewn in at the top with the post, runs down the post and back up to be sewn in again.

    Rous, I'll ask about the thickness of the bigger pieces of the glove.
     
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  29. Soxfan8

    Soxfan8 Starting Player

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    Thanks!
     
  30. bigmac25

    bigmac25 Extra Hitter

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    obv this was in regard to the Rawlings RV.... but i think Vinci does theirs differently oddly enough.
    Maybe Im remembering wrong, but I think when I asked John and Dan to help with the web swap it was quite a chore because the web was set up differently.
    not that its really relevant, but i just thought it was interesting
     

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