ASA Is it obstruction if a bat interferes with play at plate?

petebanta

Addicted to Softballfans
Game other night had me going to plate to make catch in a close play on someone stretching from 3rd to home (I pitch and female catcher backs up when play to home). As I approached plate, with my head up looking for the incoming throw, I stepped on the unseen bat left in base path by the previous right-hanbed batter, nearly breaking my ankle and causing me to miss the on-time throw for a fairly easy tag in front of the plate (Note: I was set up on the inside of line, not blocking the plate) . :mad:

Seems it should be the batter's responsibility to clear bat from play area, and not the fielding team's, or batting teams could do this on purpose, and cause a potential injury risk and distraction for the catcher.

I thought I had remembered recently reading in ASA rules that equipment that interferes with play causes the runner to be out on obstruction.

What say ye?
 
Last edited:

Sonic625

An Admin
Staff member
No call, had the batter thrown the bat at your feet then yeah you get an out but it just laying there relaxing in the sand and you come along and step on it is not it's fault :)
 

NCASAUmp

Un-Retired
No call, had the batter thrown the bat at your feet then yeah you get an out but it just laying there relaxing in the sand and you come along and step on it is not it's fault :)

Correct. Sonic wins again. ;)

Unless the batter deliberately took steps to interfere (not obstruct) with the defense's ability to get an out, it's "nothing."
 

MichelleG

Addicted to Softballfans
So, the batter is supposed to stop and clear the bat out of the way on his way to first? Nope. I catch, and it's MY responsibility to clear the bat, as we are on defense and the bat is our problem, not the offensive teams problem. Your catcher should be clearing the bat if it's in the way as soon as it's dropped. Oh...and she should be able to play her position as well...but that's another issue. :rolleyes:
 

NCASAUmp

Un-Retired
So, the batter is supposed to stop and clear the bat out of the way on his way to first? Nope. I catch, and it's MY responsibility to clear the bat, as we are on defense and the bat is our problem, not the offensive teams problem. Your catcher should be clearing the bat if it's in the way as soon as it's dropped. Oh...and she should be able to play her position as well...but that's another issue. :rolleyes:

My shins say, "amen!" Of course, that goes for both male and female catchers...
 

MichelleG

Addicted to Softballfans
My shins say, "amen!" Of course, that goes for both male and female catchers...

Agreed! It pains me when I watch other catchers play who: A. Don't get the bat out of the way. And: B. Can't catch the ball to save their life and it's either hitting Blue in the shins, kneecap, whatever,... or it's rolling to the backstop on every pitch. Crimminy!
 

NCASAUmp

Un-Retired
Agreed! It pains me when I watch other catchers play who: A. Don't get the bat out of the way. And: B. Can't catch the ball to save their life and it's either hitting Blue in the shins, kneecap, whatever,... or it's rolling to the backstop on every pitch. Crimminy!

Which is why I never pick up the ball for the catcher, unless I happened to catch it. Or unless it's rec league and it would take the catcher a half hour to get the ball.
 

MichelleG

Addicted to Softballfans
Which is why I never pick up the ball for the catcher, unless I happened to catch it. Or unless it's rec league and it would take the catcher a half hour to get the ball.

Sigh! Yeah, it's got to drive the pitcher mad as well to have to wait five minutes to get the ball back. ;) When will teams learn that you can't just stick any old body back there? They need to be able to play for chrissake!
 

petebanta

Addicted to Softballfans
ASA Rulebook Page 76

A batter-Runner is out, when...

F. When the batter-runner interferes with:
1. a fielder attempting to field a batted ball,
2. a fielder attempting to throw the ball,
3. a thrown ball while out of the batter’s box,
4. by making contact with a fair batted ball before reaching first base,
5. by discarding their bat in a manner that prevents the defense from
making a play on the ball,

6. (Fast Pitch) a dropped third strike.
NOTE: If this interference is an attempt to prevent a double play, the runner
closest to home plate shall be called out.

G. When the batter-runner interferes with a play at home plate in an attempt to prevent an out at home plate.

While the rulebook does not specifically define what batter is to do/not with the bat while at bat/after swing, these rules seem to address bats as obsctructions, and there is some debatable semantics in the language. Would not disallow the run, per se, but would cause the batter to be out, due to bat placement (ie. the bat not being removed from the play area after hit).

Debatable, IMO...
 

NCASAUmp

Un-Retired
ASA Rulebook Page 76

A batter-Runner is out, when...

F. When the batter-runner interferes with:
1. a fielder attempting to field a batted ball,
2. a fielder attempting to throw the ball,
3. a thrown ball while out of the batter’s box,
4. by making contact with a fair batted ball before reaching first base,
5. by discarding their bat in a manner that prevents the defense from
making a play on the ball,

6. (Fast Pitch) a dropped third strike.
NOTE: If this interference is an attempt to prevent a double play, the runner
closest to home plate shall be called out.

G. When the batter-runner interferes with a play at home plate in an attempt to prevent an out at home plate.

While the rulebook does not specifically define what batter is to do/not with the bat while at bat/after swing, these rules seem to address bats as obsctructions, and there is some debatable semantics in the language. Would not disallow the run, per se, but would cause the batter to be out, due to bat placement (ie. the bat not being removed from the play area after hit).

Debatable, IMO...

The language is just fine. If the batter discards the bat in a way that the action prevents the defense from making a play, then it's interference. What they're getting at is that they don't want batters flinging their bats back towards a catcher on a short hit in front of the plate, etc.
 

petebanta

Addicted to Softballfans
The language is just fine. If the batter discards the bat in a way that the action prevents the defense from making a play, then it's interference. What they're getting at is that they don't want batters flinging their bats back towards a catcher on a short hit in front of the plate, etc.

Ah, but it says DEFENSE and not CATCHER, so this can mean any defensive player and at any point during the play, not just directly after hit. So, the language is actually somewhat vague.

What they're getting at and what the rule SAYS are not the same thing.

Ask any lawyer...
 

NCASAUmp

Un-Retired
Ah, but it says DEFENSE and not CATCHER, so this can mean any defensive player and at any point during the play, not just directly after hit. So, the language is actually somewhat vague.

What they're getting at and what the rule SAYS are not the same thing.

Ask any lawyer...

And who do you think the catcher is playing for? The offense?

Get real.

You're not asking a lawyer. This is "ask the ump." You've got your answer.
 

petebanta

Addicted to Softballfans
And who do you think the catcher is playing for? The offense?

Get real.

You're not asking a lawyer. This is "ask the ump." You've got your answer.

You're missing the point, Ump. As it does not ONLY say catcher, it therefore means that the bat could also interfere with any other defensive players during the course of the play (which does not end at the ball being batted). Semantics actually matter in rules. Interpretation is based on the actual language used. If they MEANT catcher, they would SAY catcher, but intead they say defense, meaning ANY player on defense.
 

yem549

Bullpen Catcher
Agreed! It pains me when I watch other catchers play who: A. Don't get the bat out of the way.

It's not my job to get the bat out of the way, if it's convenient for me to I will, but if there's going to be a play at the plate I'm not going out of my way to move it, that's what on deck hitters are for. In fact I've been told as much by an umpire when I screamed at an opposing catcher for not getting a bat out of the way.
 

MichelleG

Addicted to Softballfans
Ah, but it says DEFENSE and not CATCHER, so this can mean any defensive player and at any point during the play, not just directly after hit. So, the language is actually somewhat vague.

What they're getting at and what the rule SAYS are not the same thing.

Ask any lawyer...

Being that the catcher is the closest to the dropped/tossed bat 99.9% of the time...doesn't common sense dictate that said catcher kick the dang bat out of the way?

Oh...wait...you invoked lawyers....no common sense at play there.....never mind. :rolleyes:
 

NCASAUmp

Un-Retired
You're missing the point, Ump. As it does not ONLY say catcher, it therefore means that the bat could also interfere with any other defensive players during the course of the play (which does not end at the ball being batted). Semantics actually matter in rules. Interpretation is based on the actual language used. If they MEANT catcher, they would SAY catcher, but intead they say defense, meaning ANY player on defense.

The OP described a play involving the catcher. My answer was built around that framework, and the question was answered.

So yes, you're correct, the rule does not only pertain to the catcher, but rather any defensive player's ability to make a play on the ball.

So I ask again, what's your point?
 

MichelleG

Addicted to Softballfans
It's not my job to get the bat out of the way, if it's convenient for me to I will, but if there's going to be a play at the plate I'm not going out of my way to move it, that's what on deck hitters are for. In fact I've been told as much by an umpire when I screamed at an opposing catcher for not getting a bat out of the way.

Oh, really. So you'd rather risk injury to YOURSELF than be bothered to move a bat? Super. Glad I don't play in your league. Every ump I've ever spoken to around here has directed that the catcher move the bat. The on deck hitter is not be on the field of play(outside the on deck area) until they are actually at bat.
 

petebanta

Addicted to Softballfans
The OP described a play involving the catcher. My answer was built around that framework, and the question was answered.

So yes, you're correct, the rule does not only pertain to the catcher, but rather any defensive player's ability to make a play on the ball.

So I ask again, what's your point?

Actually if you re-read it, my original post says I am the pitcher and was the one who tripped over the left bat while going to plate to make play at home. As I am a defensive player, the bat obstruction rule pertains to me, too.

My point about lawyers has to do with semantics (big word that means what words mean). Rules are the same as laws. The language used matters greatly. If it says defensive player, it means ANY defensive player. It HAS to say ONLY catcher, to mean only the catcher can be interfered with by a left bat. Since it does not, the rule applies to ANY defensive player (including the pitcher). Meaning, that since the bat obstructed my ability to make a play, it is ruled obstruction, and the batter is out. Run still counts, but batter is out.
 

yem549

Bullpen Catcher
Nice "sportsmanlike" attitude there. :rolleyes: It's more to your teams advantage than to theirs. But, hey, if you want to break a leg....be my guest.

If it's at my feet it gets kicked out of the way, am I moving up the line to get it, no. Once play is dead, I'll pick it up and hand it the next batter so he can get it out of the way, but if the ball is live I have other things to worry about. If the bat goes 8 feet up the third base line, and there's a runner rounding third should I go get it and miss being out of position for a play at the plate? Nope, that's the runners problem.
 

joncon

Addicted to Softballfans
5. by discarding their bat in a manner that prevents the defense from
making a play on the ball
,


There is a lot of judgement and interpretation in that line. Did the bat prevent the play or did the catchers inability to think logically and remove it prevent the play? Maybe it was the pitchers lack of attention?

I've always seen the batters bat treated like part of the field.


I have also seen a lot of savvy tournament players leave their bats perfectly perpendicular, about 3' in front of the plate if there was a runner on 2b, hoping it may get in the way of a throw from the OF. I of course pick it up and toss it aside.

If the bat is in my way (catcher) I will move it. If they leave the bat up the 3B line, I might just leave it. I had a guy give me all kinds of crap for several innings because I left a bat on the 3B line. HE was on deck and they had the the 3B dugout, but it was MY job to move the bat? Whatever dude.
 

MichelleG

Addicted to Softballfans
If it's at my feet it gets kicked out of the way, am I moving up the line to get it, no. Once play is dead, I'll pick it up and hand it the next batter so he can get it out of the way, but if the ball is live I have other things to worry about. If the bat goes 8 feet up the third base line, and there's a runner rounding third should I go get it and miss being out of position for a play at the plate? Nope, that's the runners problem.

Well there I agree with you. If it's way up the line on either side it's not in your area. Runner would have to dodge it in this case. Seems like this is another problem altogether....batter/runner throwing the bat. :eek:
 

yem549

Bullpen Catcher
Actually if you re-read it, my original post says I am the pitcher and was the one who tripped over the left bat while going to plate to make play at home. As I am a defensive player, the bat obstruction rule pertains to me, too.

My point about lawyers has to do with semantics (big word that means what words mean). Rules are the same as laws. The language used matters greatly. If it says defensive player, it means ANY defensive player. It HAS to say ONLY catcher, to mean only the catcher can be interfered with by a left bat. Since it does not, the rule applies to ANY defensive player (including the pitcher). Meaning, that since the bat obstructed my ability to make a play, it is ruled obstruction, and the batter is out. Run still counts, but batter is out.

I see the point your trying to get at, but I'm pretty sure the batter would have actually had to purposely do something with the bat to prevent you from making a play. It would be damn near impossible to prove the batter did that purposely when there was no way he knew there would be a play at the plate. It would be a different story if the bases were loaded batter hit a ground ball, then turned around and threw the bat at the catcher's feet so the catcher would trip and not be able to make the force play, or whipped the bat at the pitcher who was trying to field the ball.
 

yem549

Bullpen Catcher
Well there I agree with you. If it's way up the line on either side it's not in your area. Runner would have to dodge it in this case. Seems like this is another problem altogether....batter/runner throwing the bat. :eek:

Bats land all over the place with out being thrown, very rarely do I see them in the batters box the batter was just occupying.
 

joncon

Addicted to Softballfans
It seems like the guy who bats before me carries it halfway down the 1B line if we have the 3b dugout or chucks it halfway up the 3B line if we have the 1B dugout.
 

petebanta

Addicted to Softballfans
There is a lot of judgement and interpretation in that line. Did the bat prevent the play or did the catchers inability to think logically and remove it prevent the play? Maybe it was the pitchers lack of attention?

I've always seen the batters bat treated like part of the field.


I have also seen a lot of savvy tournament players leave their bats perfectly perpendicular, about 3' in front of the plate if there was a runner on 2b, hoping it may get in the way of a throw from the OF. I of course pick it up and toss it aside.

If the bat is in my way (catcher) I will move it. If they leave the bat up the 3B line, I might just leave it. I had a guy give me all kinds of crap for several innings because I left a bat on the 3B line. HE was on deck and they had the the 3B dugout, but it was MY job to move the bat? Whatever dude.

But that is part of my point. It is NOT the catcher's job to remove bats, it is the batter's job (or his teammates) to keep it clear of the play area. Why should the defense be concerned with offensive equipment? It seems the burden of responsibility is with the batter to place the bat somewhere it will not interfere with play. Otherwise, he could always leave it where it could get in the way and create a problem for the defense. If the rules don't say it is the catcher's job to do it, it seems it is the batter's, since it is his piece of equipment (same way defense cannot throw glove in way or runner/ball).
 

hookumsnivy

Addicted to Softballfans
Actually if you re-read it, my original post says I am the pitcher and was the one who tripped over the left bat while going to plate to make play at home. As I am a defensive player, the bat obstruction rule pertains to me, too.

My point about lawyers has to do with semantics (big word that means what words mean). Rules are the same as laws. The language used matters greatly. If it says defensive player, it means ANY defensive player. It HAS to say ONLY catcher, to mean only the catcher can be interfered with by a left bat. Since it does not, the rule applies to ANY defensive player (including the pitcher). Meaning, that since the bat obstructed my ability to make a play, it is ruled obstruction, and the batter is out. Run still counts, but batter is out.

It does apply to all defensive players. If the batter threw the bat in the direction of the pitcher while he was trying to field it, then it could be obstruction. The bat being there didn't not prevent you from making a play. The fact that you tripped over the bat is the problem. You could have avoided the bat quite easily, but you didn't.

What would you like the batter to do with the bat? No matter what he does with it other than throwing it out of play could be a problem by your definition. If he tosses it to the side on his way to first and a throw is offline a defensive player could trip over it while trying to get the ball. The bat is going to end up on the field in fair or foul ground no matter what. If it's going to be a problem for the defense, the catcher should get off his/her ass and move the bat. ESPECIALLY if there's no runner on 3rd base.

As a catcher my routine when there is a hit to the OF with a runner on base is simple:
Toss the mask to the side.
Check where the bat is and kick it if it's in my way.
Get to the front left corner of the plate and wait for the throw.

Of course directing the fielders where to go w/ the ball is mixed in there.
 

hookumsnivy

Addicted to Softballfans
It is NOT the catcher's job to remove bats, it is the batter's job (or his teammates) to keep it clear of the play area. Why should the defense be concerned with offensive equipment? It seems the burden of responsibility is with the batter to place the bat somewhere it will not interfere with play.

Anywhere he tosses the bat could potentially interfere with the play.
Would you rather the on deck batter come onto the field? He's not supposed to be in the field of play. He could confuse the defense (another player running on the field), get in your way as you go to cover home, or otherwise interfere with you making a play.

It's not the offense's fault that you tripped over the bat and almost hurt yourself. Blame your catcher or be more careful next time.
 
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