ASA Whose call?

The problem is that you’re stating that the plate umpire has authority where they do not, quoting rules that do not apply or exist. That’s where you’re creating a lot of confusion among players who are reading this thread.

The USA/ASA Rule Book is "THE OFFICIAL PLAYING RULES" . Below is the section of the RULEBOOK that refers to the responsibility of the plate umpire during game play, cut and pasted directly from Section 10 - UMPIRES and i have highlighted and underlined the single most important sentence in Section 10, POWER AND DUTIES

"RULE 10 - UMPIRES

SECTION 1 - POWER AND DUTIES
The umpires are representative of the league or organization by which they have been assigned to a particular game and, as such, are authorized and required to enforce each section of these rules. They have the power to order a player, coach, captain or manager to carry out or to omit any act which, in their judgment is necessary to give force and effect to one or all of these rules, and to impose penalties as herein prescribed, The plate umpire shall have the authority to make decisions on any situations not specifically covered in these rules. The following is the general information for umpires."

This sentence applies to the entire Rule Book, Rule 1 thru Rule 10. The responsibility of making calls in the field of play, which is NOT covered by any hard and fast rule falls under the responsibilities of the plate umpire. Nowhere in the Official Playing Rules is there any reference for a specific assignment of responsibilities for making a call, this lies under the authority of the plate umpire, period.

You continue to use the UMPIRE MANUAL covering MECHANICS and best positioning methods, etc, etc which are not RULES. Yes, they are very important for umpires to learn these basic positioning positions, ie angle to call runner, catch, foot position of 1st baseman as a clear example. Positioning the base umpire inside the base paths when the ball is outside the paths, positioning himself outside this diamond when the ball is inside to negate the possibility of interfering with the fielder. Hustling to get into position to call a bang, bang sliding call with proper angle, stopping in time to position himself, seeing the call, selling the call when needed by asking the fielder to "show me the ball" etc, etc and my all time pet peeve, when a plate umpire calls out "fair ball" when he is only to signal with the inside arm toward fair territory and only verbally calling our "foul ball", how much confusion this umpire causes.

OK, so i have stated the basis of all of my posts for this discussion based on a printed rule in the Official Rule Book, not on the Umpire Manual which is a very useful guide for umpires to use for mechanics, positioning, etc but does not contain a single rule. The rules of the game are solely contained in the Official Rule Book.

So if the plate umpire instructs the base umpires before play starts, "I have the catch or no catch call on all fly balls, line drives, and pop ups" then that is the way that game will be called. If he states, "I have the catch or no catch call on all fly balls or line drives in the infield, base umpire has call on all fly balls or line drives in the outfield" then that is the way that game will be called.

The rule book defines the responsibility thru the plate umpire, the umpire manual helps all of the umpires to position themselves so they may effectively render a fair and equitable game for both teams by ruling on out/safe calls, fair/foul balls, catch/no catch situations and interpreting the rule book, applying and defining the rules and their effects, and explaining, when necessary those decisions to the participants.

I find nothing that trumps Rule 10 - Umpires, Section 1 - Powers and Duties
 
Just stop. You’re embarrassing yourself and doing nothing but confusing these players.

i think you are mistaken, i have referenced the correct RULE, you, my friend, are trying to justify your argument by substituting a guide for umpires to use that helps them with their mechanics for a rule.

There isn't a single reference in the mechanics guide that usurps a rule. You cannot state a rule to support your argument.

I note that you reference in your tagline that you are an un-retired ASA ump. I am currently a Senior softball player only, previously a sanctioned ASA umpire for 26 years and a member of the North Carolina High School Athletic Association (NCHSAA) for the same 26 year time period in both a games official and advisory capacity.
 

EAJuggalo

Addicted to Softballfans
i think you are mistaken, i have referenced the correct RULE, you, my friend, are trying to justify your argument by substituting a guide for umpires to use that helps them with their mechanics for a rule.

There isn't a single reference in the mechanics guide that usurps a rule. You cannot state a rule to support your argument.

I note that you reference in your tagline that you are an un-retired ASA ump. I am currently a Senior softball player only, previously a sanctioned ASA umpire for 26 years and a member of the North Carolina High School Athletic Association (NCHSAA) for the same 26 year time period in both a games official and advisory capacity.
No, you referenced a rule that has nothing to do with the question I asked. Coverage is not a matter of the rules, it is a matter of the mechanics. The rule in scenario is certainly covered elsewhere in the book, so Rule 10 would not come into play. The rule is that if the ball is caught before touching the ground the batter is out, the mechanic is whose responsible for making that call. NC has certainly given me a reasonable explanation that I am willing to accept, I will probably talk about it with my USA State UIC when I see him in February.

@jbo911 Will you please lock this thread. The three of us are talking around each other and not doing anything productive. My question has been answered.
 
No, you referenced a rule that has nothing to do with the question I asked. Coverage is not a matter of the rules, it is a matter of the mechanics. The rule in scenario is certainly covered elsewhere in the book, so Rule 10 would not come into play. The rule is that if the ball is caught before touching the ground the batter is out, the mechanic is whose responsible for making that call. NC has certainly given me a reasonable explanation that I am willing to accept, I will probably talk about it with my USA State UIC when I see him in February.

@jbo911 Will you please lock this thread. The three of us are talking around each other and not doing anything productive. My question has been answered.


You can take this any way you want, you can have the moderator to close the thread also if you want, but the plate umpire is ultimately responsible for the administering of the rules, flow of the game, providing fair and equitable rulings for both teams, and providing an enjoyable game for both players and fans and if the plate umpire says he has every fly ball call, that is his decision alone and he will properly step into the field as needed to make the call. If he determines that the base umpire(s) have these calls or any other calls, he will then take a secondary role by allowing them to make the call and there will be no calling on top of each other which is why the initial post was being made. I referenced the governing rule.
 

EAJuggalo

Addicted to Softballfans
You can take this any way you want, you can have the moderator to close the thread also if you want, but the plate umpire is ultimately responsible for the administering of the rules, flow of the game, providing fair and equitable rulings for both teams, and providing an enjoyable game for both players and fans and if the plate umpire says he has every fly ball call, that is his decision alone and he will properly step into the field as needed to make the call. If he determines that the base umpire(s) have these calls or any other calls, he will then take a secondary role by allowing them to make the call and there will be no calling on top of each other which is why the initial post was being made. I referenced the governing rule.
No, all of the umpires are responsible for administering the rules and every other trope you put in that post. Let's take your belief a step further, a bang bang play on a grounder at first, umpire manual says that is BU's call. By your reading of Rule 10, which is wrong, PU has the right to tap dance all over it and make any call they want. THERE IS NO GOVERNING RULE ABOUT MECHANICS.
 
No, all of the umpires are responsible for administering the rules and every other trope you put in that post. Let's take your belief a step further, a bang bang play on a grounder at first, umpire manual says that is BU's call. By your reading of Rule 10, which is wrong, PU has the right to tap dance all over it and make any call they want. THERE IS NO GOVERNING RULE ABOUT MECHANICS.

never once said that the plate umpire could or would embarrass himself or the other umpire. That is the basis of the Rule, to clarify what responsibilities belong to whom. Apparently you just can’t accept the Rule as written.

There is an old saying, “there’s only two ways to argue with a woman…………………and neither one works.” I’m just saying…………………………………………
 

NCASAUmp

Un-Retired
i think you are mistaken, i have referenced the correct RULE, you, my friend, are trying to justify your argument by substituting a guide for umpires to use that helps them with their mechanics for a rule.

There isn't a single reference in the mechanics guide that usurps a rule. You cannot state a rule to support your argument.

I note that you reference in your tagline that you are an un-retired ASA ump. I am currently a Senior softball player only, previously a sanctioned ASA umpire for 26 years and a member of the North Carolina High School Athletic Association (NCHSAA) for the same 26 year time period in both a games official and advisory capacity.

And yet, in all those years, you never learned what dictates who has what call?

The rules do not dictate this. Never have. The umpire manual does. You should know that by now. You’re taking things out of the proper context to fit your narrative.

I’ve already run it up the flagpole and gotten the answer (which you have yet to acknowledge), and these guys know me well enough over the last decade to know that I’m not going to steer them wrong.
 

EAJuggalo

Addicted to Softballfans
That is the basis of the Rule, to clarify what responsibilities belong to whom. Apparently you just can’t accept the Rule as written.
No it's not. The basis of the rule is the recognition that a rule book can not have a rule for every possible scenario. If something isn't covered it's going to be up to the PU to decide what the ruling is going to be. It has absolutely nothing to do with which umpire is assigned primary responsibility for the call.
You say you're a senior player now, so let's try this scenario. National tournament in OKC, two man crew and one of your guys legs out a double. PU calls him out before BU has a chance to make a call, BU is 8 feet off the bag in perfect position and PU is a dozen steps up the 1B line. You as a player/coach/manager aren't going to have any issue with PU making that call? You said above that PU has the authority to assign calls.
Nowhere in the Official Playing Rules is there any reference for a specific assignment of responsibilities for making a call, this lies under the authority of the plate umpire, period.
Personally I'm going to be livid and calling for the UIC and TD. The call may not be changed but you can bet every bat in your bag that PU won't be working another game in OKC.
 
No it's not. The basis of the rule is the recognition that a rule book can not have a rule for every possible scenario. If something isn't covered it's going to be up to the PU to decide what the ruling is going to be. It has absolutely nothing to do with which umpire is assigned primary responsibility for the call.

You finally agree (underlined above in your post) why the RULE exists and how it is put into play. To avoid confusion when there is not a hard and fast rule to cover every conceivable situation that might occur in a game of softball. This includes the flow of the game and how the umpires interact.

I didn't copy your hypothetical because neither you, NCASA ump, or I would be irresponsible enough to make a call over the base ump who is standing, in position, ready to make a call at second base.

But the very first post, which is a good, thought provoking scenario shows the importance of the PU responsibility. He clearly, calmly tells the BU, "in the event there is a sharp line drive hit in the infield, i will make the call".

Please understand, this is the first step in, applying the RULE and following the umpire manual also to make sure there are no double calls which is what the original post was trying to avoid, with clarity of who's call is it.

i agree 100% that the umpire manual is needed when any new umpire begins the task of calling games. It also should be used as a refresher for seasoned umpires. It also should be a guide for the PU to use when he has his meeting with the BU during the meeting that he has prior to start of any game when he defines how HIS crew will call the game.
 

EAJuggalo

Addicted to Softballfans
If you're going to quote post, do it correctly. The important part of the statement was the sentence after the one you decided to bold and underline. Here it is again for you: It has absolutely nothing to do with which umpire is assigned primary responsibility for a call. Now if you'd like to respond to the entire post instead of cherry picking one line and taking it out of context. Please do. Or maybe respond to the direct question that was asked in that post. Or come see me in OKC next year and we can talk about it.
 
If you're going to quote post, do it correctly. The important part of the statement was the sentence after the one you decided to bold and underline. Here it is again for you: It has absolutely nothing to do with which umpire is assigned primary responsibility for a call. Now if you'd like to respond to the entire post instead of cherry picking one line and taking it out of context. Please do. Or maybe respond to the direct question that was asked in that post. Or come see me in OKC next year and we can talk about it.

I hope you have a Happy Thanksgiving. Don’t know what OKC stands for, maybe Oklahoma City? I’ll be playing for a 70+ team based out of NC/Va but not sure how far we will travel. Maybe we cross paths, maybe not.
 
Top