A not so obvious Leather question.

[DatDuke]

As many of the members here know that Wilson use their top 5 percent hide to make A2Ks, and the rest is used to make A2000s.

So my question is, for Rawlings, they use their top 5 percent to make HoHs, what happen to the remaining 95%? I know they dont make their GG with the same HoH leather. What do they use their majority of leather on?

Thanks.

 

[beeblebobble]

As many of the members here know that Wilson use their top 5 percent hide to make A2Ks, and the rest is used to make A2000s.

So my question is, for Rawlings, they use their top 5 percent to make HoHs, what happen to the remaining 95%? I know they dont make their GG with the same HoH leather. What do they use their majority of leather on?

Thanks.

Their marketing says, "Top 5% of steer hides" I assume that's picking what they purchase and the rest goes to make pro stock leather for Wilson. Humor aside, I don't put much stock in their marketing, its just something to get consumers to consume.

 

[DatDuke]

OK, I guess they only purchase the top 5% from their supplier. And do not stock the remaining 95%. Or like you said, its just a marketing hype.

 

[Felks32]

OK, I guess they only purchase the top 5% from their supplier. And do not stock the remaining 95%. Or like you said, its just a marketing hype.

Plus that 5% is a wide range lol. Some of those Red PROHARP34S HOH gloves are pretty damn close to a GG Gamer level.

 

[etnstudios]

it's actually the top 5% of whatever stack they're grabbing from. once they take that, the stack is reduced and they take the "next" top 5%. so on and so on until the stack is finished. words are fun

 

[DatDuke]

So, the end of the stock pile will still go into a HoH, because the last 5% of the remaining 5% stock is still top 5%, am I right? #PalmtoFace

 

[Rous]

I am sure it is all marketing hype. I always thought it was the top 5% of hides made in tanneries, but how do you define that? ANd do they really sort out the top 5% of those delivered at the factory so 90% go to making lower level gloves? I am sure not.

It used to be that A2K and PP used fundamentally different leathers (kip, bruciato, whatever) leathers, but except for the Rawlings Bruciato, Mocha and Rich Tan, it seems the same leathers are used for PP and A2000 and HOH and PP.

There may be some sorting at the factory (I think there were some Mochal GG Gamers), but the real difference is going to be the lining, padding, etc.

The production cost difference between a $130 GGG, a $250 HOH and a $360 PP is probably $10-$20 per jump. The price difference is due to demand for the different qualities.

 

[bigmac25]

I honestly dont know, but a few months ago i thought someone mentioned on IG (someone who could actly know rather than just someone talking out their %^&*) that itd be interesting now that Rawlings and Wilson would be sourcing from the same place. Is that true??

 

[smarkley3]

Lets just simplify this, except for there very top level glove, the company contract out to overseas factory and give them a spec and cost that they want. They just inspect the factory and check samples then OK the run

 

[Gators21]

Why are there so many different "feels" of HOHs?? Every Pro Preferred I've put on my hand, whether new or used, feels pretty much the same. Is that a testament to Pro Preferred being Rawlings gold standard in today's current glove world?

 

[DatDuke]

Kip leather have less imperfections.

 

[bigmac25]

more so than less imperfections, HOH seems to try and do a lot with the 'line'. PP seems to have less choices and kinda sticks to its wheelhouse in what it does best. HOH seems to do different things... like have you ever put your hand in the white ones?? thin and soft. IMO it was everything a HOH shouldnt be/.... but since its deemed part of the line, HOH it is.
I think the smaller and less complicated the line, the more consistency youd get.

 

[huntaholic21]

more so than less imperfections, HOH seems to try and do a lot with the 'line'. PP seems to have less choices and kinda sticks to its wheelhouse in what it does best. HOH seems to do different things... like have you ever put your hand in the white ones?? thin and soft. IMO it was everything a HOH should be/.... but since its deemed part of the line, HOH it is.
I think the smaller and less complicated the line, the more consistency youd get.

This^^^. Absolute crap shoot with hoh I think. There is a mom and pop sporting goods store locally and I make it a point to go in every couple months and I put my hand in every a2000, a2k, hoh, pp. probably 50-75 or so gloves. Same with ****s. The variation in stiffness glove to glove within the same line is quite a bit. Even the same model and color can vary quite a bit. Definitely can't be generalized with any accuracy. Anybody else really annoyed by the factory "break in" for retail Wilsons? What a joke.

 

[MaverickAH]

more so than less imperfections, HOH seems to try and do a lot with the 'line'. PP seems to have less choices and kinda sticks to its wheelhouse in what it does best. HOH seems to do different things... like have you ever put your hand in the white ones?? thin and soft. IMO it was everything a HOH should be/.... but since its deemed part of the line, HOH it is.
I think the smaller and less complicated the line, the more consistency youd get.

The process of making leather white is a strident one. It's very nature is going to result in thinner softer leather. For the longest time, when it came to baseball/softball, you only saw white leather being used for primarily batting gloves where its properties were beneficial. I think that it's only been with the advent of wider sources of kip leather that you've seen more white gloves. Kip leather seems to hold up better to the whitening/bleaching process due to its denser grain. Even so, there is still some amount of thinning/softening although it's much less than in steer hide leather.

This^^^. Absolute crap shoot with hoh I think. There is a mom and pop sporting goods store locally and I make it a point to go in every couple months and I put my hand in every a2000, a2k, hoh, pp. probably 50-75 or so gloves. Same with ****s. The variation in stiffness glove to glove within the same line is quite a bit. Even the same model and color can vary quite a bit. Definitely can't be generalized with any accuracy. Anybody else really annoyed by the factory "break in" for retail Wilsons? What a joke.

Why get annoyed??? Guess what? You are not their target market!

Their target market is the youth to teen market & they don't want to spend a whole lot of time breaking in a glove. It's just not what they want to do in this multi-tasking, immediate gratification society we live in. They want NOW! Give them a brand new old school horween glove they will either give up on it or do something stupid & ruin it!

It is what it is.......... Just be glad that there're still avenues available for you to get what you like!

Long gone are the days when stock gloves from the major makers are the same as PI. I'm old enough to have used & remember stock, USA A2000's. You'd have to get a PI or a custom with no factory break-in to get close!

 

[bigmac25]

The process of making leather white is a strident one. It's very nature is going to result in thinner softer leather. For the longest time, when it came to baseball/softball, you only saw white leather being used for primarily batting gloves where its properties were beneficial. I think that it's only been with the advent of wider sources of kip leather that you've seen more white gloves. Kip leather seems to hold up better to the whitening/bleaching process due to its denser grain. Even so, there is still some amount of thinning/softening although it's much less than in steer hide leather.



Why get annoyed??? Guess what? You are not their target market!

Their target market is the youth to teen market & they don't want to spend a whole lot of time breaking in a glove. It's just not what they want to do in this multi-tasking, immediate gratification society we live in. They want NOW! Give them a brand new old school horween glove they will either give up on it or do something stupid & ruin it!

It is what it is.......... Just be glad that there're still avenues available for you to get what you like!

Long gone are the days when stock gloves from the major makers are the same as PI. I'm old enough to have used & remember stock, USA A2000's. You'd have to get a PI or a custom with no factory break-in to get close!

interesting, thanks!

 

[Jchap]

This^^^. Absolute crap shoot with hoh I think. There is a mom and pop sporting goods store locally and I make it a point to go in every couple months and I put my hand in every a2000, a2k, hoh, pp. probably 50-75 or so gloves. Same with ****s. The variation in stiffness glove to glove within the same line is quite a bit. Even the same model and color can vary quite a bit. Definitely can't be generalized with any accuracy. Anybody else really annoyed by the factory "break in" for retail Wilsons? What a joke.

It also depends on how many times the glove was tried in in the store. A glove that has been on the rack/shelf for half a year and had hundreds of people try it out will be broken in.

 

[Jchap]

The process of making leather white is a strident one. It's very nature is going to result in thinner softer leather. For the longest time, when it came to baseball/softball, you only saw white leather being used for primarily batting gloves where its properties were beneficial. I think that it's only been with the advent of wider sources of kip leather that you've seen more white gloves. Kip leather seems to hold up better to the whitening/bleaching process due to its denser grain. Even so, there is still some amount of thinning/softening although it's much less than in steer hide leather.



Why get annoyed??? Guess what? You are not their target market!

Their target market is the youth to teen market & they don't want to spend a whole lot of time breaking in a glove. It's just not what they want to do in this multi-tasking, immediate gratification society we live in. They want NOW! Give them a brand new old school horween glove they will either give up on it or do something stupid & ruin it!

It is what it is.......... Just be glad that there're still avenues available for you to get what you like!

Long gone are the days when stock gloves from the major makers are the same as PI. I'm old enough to have used & remember stock, USA A2000's. You'd have to get a PI or a custom with no factory break-in to get close!

I was just in a mom and pop store that has GOTM and GGC gloves, among others. The owner told me he had a high school kid talk his dad out of getting him a HOH, the kid wanted a gold glove gamer instead, said it felt better. I said, kids don't want to take the time to break in a HOH, and the owner said he just steams them for the customer so that shouldn't be an issue. While I was there, I saw a customer buy a PP and have the tags taken off and steamed right then and there. Unbelievable, but that is what is happening in the "real world" of the mass glove market.

 

[Rous]

Hard to break in a glove if you don't spend a lot of time "playing catch." Article in the NY Times today about how kids can't play catch (yes, the coach interviewed said "play catch").

My son really likes practice as well as playing, but I'm pretty much the one one he throws with just for fun. Playing catch was probably our #1 pass time back in the late 70s. Easy to break in gloves when you do that.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/01/...mers-but-playing-catch-thats-tricky.html?_r=0

 

[smarkley3]

Hard to break in a glove if you don't spend a lot of time "playing catch." Article in the NY Times today about how kids can't play catch (yes, the coach interviewed said "play catch").

My son really likes practice as well as playing, but I'm pretty much the one one he throws with just for fun. Playing catch was probably our #1 pass time back in the late 70s. Easy to break in gloves when you do that.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/01/...mers-but-playing-catch-thats-tricky.html?_r=0

I grew up in the northeast and when the ice started to melt we would start to play catch. I think I broke two new gloves in as a kid and I used them in games before they were totaly broken in. Now these were sandlot games but, to me the world series. I doubt that kids today even play these kind of pick up games, so playing catch and any diamond sport only happen at some organized level. Kids of my skill level sat on the bench most of the time so we quit and went and played on our own so we got to play. Now kids just wont play and go do something else ( soccer is big hear in So Cal).
Rous I am sure more kids would play if they had parents that encouraged (not pushed) and helped them. As far as gloves, you have to make them understand why you want to start as a stiffer glove. It also helps that you have broken in good gloves that show them how they will age. You should see the ragged POS that some senior guys call a glove, LOL.

 

[Slim45]

Why get annoyed??? Guess what? You are not their target market!

Their target market is the youth to teen market & they don't want to spend a whole lot of time breaking in a glove. It's just not what they want to do in this multi-tasking, immediate gratification society we live in. They want NOW! Give them a brand new old school horween glove they will either give up on it or do something stupid & ruin it!

It is what it is.......... Just be glad that there're still avenues available for you to get what you like!

Long gone are the days when stock gloves from the major makers are the same as PI. I'm old enough to have used & remember stock, USA A2000's. You'd have to get a PI or a custom with no factory break-in to get close!

Got my 13 year old stepson an A1K for christmas this year to use on his tourney team. Before I bought it I had a talk with him that it would take some effort to break in to make sure he was okay with doing the work before I was going to spend that kind of money. Only thing I allowed outside of practice to break in was to use my glove mallet at home. Games have started and it is still a little stiff, but I'm okay with that because last year he had a POS his dad bought him that had no structure at all left by then end of the season and he needs to get used to using a real glove. He seems to be liking it and is okay with the slow break in process.

The academy we practice out of has a deal with De Marini/Wilson/Louisville Slugger, so I saw a lot of brand new A2000's there this spring when practices started. Most of them had creases and were losing structure before the glove had even been used outside due to whatever break in methods were being used. I guess people anymore are fine with turning a $200+ glove into a $100 glove before it's even been used, but it's not something I am ever going to do.

 

[MaverickAH]

Hard to break in a glove if you don't spend a lot of time "playing catch." Article in the NY Times today about how kids can't play catch (yes, the coach interviewed said "play catch").

My son really likes practice as well as playing, but I'm pretty much the one one he throws with just for fun. Playing catch was probably our #1 pass time back in the late 70s. Easy to break in gloves when you do that.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/01/...mers-but-playing-catch-thats-tricky.html?_r=0

Good article. It's about a lot more than just playing catch & it echoes what I see all the time. It's not the kid's fault though. I's mostly the fault of instructors who either lack the knowledge to properly instruct or lack the ability to transfer said knowledge onto their pupils.

• It's disheartening to see how many players don't "think" the game.
• I see players with strong arms but with horrible footwork & mechanics all the time. They're just an arm injury waiting to happen. Don't even get me started about a quick ball release!
• Pitchers who throw but never learn to pitch. Never learn how to hold a runner on base. Never learn a slide step.
• Hitters who have bad mechanics & are one dimensional.
• Players who are never taught or never learn the finer points of the game that can make the difference of being average or of being very good.

 

[beeblebobble]

Good article. It's about a lot more than just playing catch & it echoes what I see all the time. It's not the kid's fault though. I's mostly the fault of instructors who either lack the knowledge to properly instruct or lack the ability to transfer said knowledge onto their pupils.

• It's disheartening to see how many players don't "think" the game.
• I see players with strong arms but with horrible footwork & mechanics all the time. They're just an arm injury waiting to happen. Don't even get me started about a quick ball release!
• Pitchers who throw but never learn to pitch. Never learn how to hold a runner on base. Never learn a slide step.
• Hitters who have bad mechanics & are one dimensional.
• Players who are never taught or never learn the finer points of the game that can make the difference of being average or of being very good.

You know its funny, I kind of feel like the level of information today to teach kids is at an all time high. I went to high school in Northern Ill in the late 80s. Playing Pony ball and high school I never got a whole lot of technique taught to me, just a bunch of what really amount to cliche's "watch the ball into the glove" "Throw though the first baseman for a strong throw" My high school varsity coach would literally make a fist and say "just go Boom! on the ball" while punching the air to help our hitting. Granted he was a Gym teacher working with the Driver's Ed teacher to be our coach so we had a team. It was basically you either had talent and had a basic grasp of the game or you didn't.

But what I see here in Southern California for what these kids get today. Great baseball academies with former pros passing on great hitting knowledge, great techniques for fielding and throwing. There are endless training videos on youtube with more of the same, just an endless vault of amazing information. Go on mlbnetwork youtube videos and you can see the warm ups Ron Washington does with Marcus Siemem. I've learned more in the past few years and improved my game than I ever was exposed or had a chance to learn from playing little league and high school ball in the 80s. If anything these kids are much better ball players than me and many of my colleagues ever were at that age. Regardless of how they break in their gloves or lack of playing pick up games and catch that my friends and myself lived for everyday.

 

[MaverickAH]

My HS years (early 70's), were frustrating & demoralizing for reasons I won't get into here. My college years were where I started to really started to get the kind of instruction that would've benefitted me at the next level thanks to a head coach with triple A experience & an assistant head coach with USA national team experience. Even with that, they weren't pitchers so I had to self teach myself a lot of stuff in addition to attending a couple of camps held by pro scouts. Unfortunately, a major arm injury ( pre-Tommy John surgery) derailed that path. My head coach had the unfortunate experience of being a LHH 1stbaseman coming up in the Cardinals organization behind Keith Hernandez!

 

[Rous]

Even though I posted the link to the article, I am going to agree with beeblebobble here (and with Mav too, I think). WHen I was growing up is was all dad coach and most dads didn't know much. Even the high school coaches didn't do much coaching of fundamentals. The natural athletes made the team and that was pretty much it. My son's mechanics are 10x better than mine ever were because he has taken lessons. But it is also true that in this land of video games and club baseball, if it isn't within the context of an organized practice, lesson, or game, kids are not going to pick up a glove and "have a catch" or "play catch."

My son is also at a high school where only a handful of varsity players have any select or club experience (most still come out of the dad coach local little league). Unfortunately, most of the varsity teams they play are completely made up of boys that played select from age 7 on. I asked my son what the biggest difference is and he said that they make all the plays. That is, playable grounders are outs, playable fly balls are caught, when a good throw gets a runner out, they make it. That is not the case for my son's team (which admittedly is made up of 5 freshmen, 6 sophomores, 1 junior, and 2 seniors). Oh, and they can hit and pitch too.

 

[gladahc]

Even though I posted the link to the article, I am going to agree with beeblebobble here (and with Mav too, I think). WHen I was growing up is was all dad coach and most dads didn't know much. Even the high school coaches didn't do much coaching of fundamentals. The natural athletes made the team and that was pretty much it. My son's mechanics are 10x better than mine ever were because he has taken lessons. But it is also true that in this land of video games and club baseball, if it isn't within the context of an organized practice, lesson, or game, kids are not going to pick up a glove and "have a catch" or "play catch."

There is so much truth in this. And this is coming from someone who does the "dad-coach" thing. We rely HEAVILY on our naturally athletic kids. Shoot. I have to nag my own kid to get outside and throw. If it's not for a game, he's not interested in practicing. Picked up A1ks for my 9 and 11 year old, had a big discussion about taking care of it and how THEY would have to break their gloves in. A month later, they still are dropping every ball, and I'm still nagging them to play more catch to get their gloves broken in before practices start.

 

[MaverickAH]

It's this instant gratification, multi-tasking society we now live in that's to blame!

I'm a "Wonder Years" city kid. Outside of school, I'd say that 90% of the activities we were involved in required running, throwing & catching. Add to that the fact that we lived, breathed & ate baseball with little to no distractions. No cable, no internet, no cell phones, no social media......... Nothing to distract us from the basics of school, athletics or any personal interest hobbies.

Now that I stop to think about it, although we weren't as socially aware or advanced in the ways of the world as kids today are, in many ways we were more independent & responsible. By the age of 11, I was pretty much responsible for getting myself to my LL games as were most of my peers. Nowadays kids are chauffeured everywhere & their days are planned for them down to the minute. I'm not saying that this is a bad thing, just different.

 

[DatDuke]

Today, my youngest didn't have H.S. practice, so when I got home from work, he asked me to play catch and work on the errors he committed during his first game all without asking. That is the different between forced to play and wanted to play. There are a few gifted kids on the team, but my son is not one of them. He just works hard at it. I guess he is old school.

 

[etnstudios]

he probably needs a new glove. you should buy another. should clean those errors right up

 

[DatDuke]

He has new gloves, but keep going back to his pro preferred. He has a leather head that is not even broken in yet. today, 2nd game error free. Hope the trend continues. I kept telling him that the equipment doesn't make someone a better player, but wrong equipment will diminish one's natural talent.

 

[eviladams]

Lotsa "back in my day" talk in here. Holy hell.