Another ASA Courtesy runner question

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defos

Well-Known Member
Our pitcher hurt his leg running to 1st 3 weeks ago and we used our once per inning courtesy runner for him when he got on base. The following week he thought he was ok, but re-injured it during his first at-bat of the day. We had 12 guys available, all on our official roster, and used the 12th guy as our courtesy runner the 2 or 3 times the pitcher reached first. After the game the umpire told me what we did was illegal, but he wasn't going to call it if the other team didn't object - which they didn't. He said by repeatedly using the same player, who was not otherwise in the game, as the courtesy runner for our pitcher, we created a re-entry situation for the pitcher. I said we were perfectly legal according to the courtesy runner rule, which says we're allowed a courtesy runner once an inning and it can be any player on the roster. He said he could be wrong, and would have to re-read the rule. I think he was confusing and mixing the courtesy runner and pinch runner situations.

The umpire is one of my favorites, and he likes our team, so there's no problem between us. I just want be sure we're using the rule correctly. I re-read the rule this week, and it seems pretty straightforward, but lacking in detail.
 
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irishmafia

Addicted to Softballfans
defos said:
Our pitcher hurt his leg running to 1st 3 weeks ago and we used our once per inning courtesy runner for him when he got on base. The following week he thought he was ok, but re-injured it during his first at-bat of the day. We had 12 guys available, all on our official roster, and used the 12th guy as our courtesy runner the 2 or 3 times the pitcher reached first. After the game the umpire told me what we did was illegal, but he wasn't going to call it if the other team didn't object - which they didn't. He said by repeatedly using the same player, who was not otherwise in the game, as the courtesy runner for our pitcher, we created a re-entry situation for the pitcher. I said we were perfectly legal according to the courtesy runner rule, which says we're allowed a courtesy runner once an inning and it can be any player on the roster. He said he could be wrong, and would have to re-read the rule. I think he was confusing and mixing the courtesy runner and pinch runner situations.

The umpire is one of my favorites, and he likes our team, so there's no problem between us. I just want be sure we're using the rule correctly. I re-read the rule this week, and it seems pretty straightforward, but lacking in detail.
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I disagree. What you did was completely within the rules
 
Joker

Joker

Well-Known Member
You can use a courtesy runner that is not in the line up without making a substitution?
 
hitless45

hitless45

Addicted to Softballfans
12 guys available or 12 guys batting?

I also believe the ump was correct.. 12th guy batting would be legal without creating a re-entry situation..
 
D

defos

Well-Known Member
Thank you irishmafia.


It's a new rule as of 2016. Rule 8, Section 9. B2 - Adult Slow Pitch Except Seniors - "Any eligible players that may participate on offense or defense and are on the official lineup including available substitutes may be used as a courtesy runner." Rule 8 Section 9 covers courtesy runners in (A) Masters and Seniors Fast pitch, and (B) Adult Slow Pitch, and Parts A and B need to be read together because it's written in kind of piecemeal fashion. Only A says a courtesy runner can be used once per inning.

Anyone in the batting order, as well as eligible subs, can be used as a courtesy runner. (C) describes what happens when a player in the batting order is due up while he's on base as a courtesy runner, so it seems obvious there's no re-entry problem when someone not otherwise playing is used as a courtesy runner.

A PINCH RUNNER would create a re-entry situation like the ump was talking about, but even he agreed to the once per inning part. That's why I think he was mixing the courtesy runner and pinch runner situations.
 
Joker

Joker

Well-Known Member
So you should correct your initial post to say line up and not roster. Your 12th was noted as a substitute on the line up and not just a guy who is on the roster.
 
NCASAUmp

NCASAUmp

Un-Retired
Anyone who is on the roster can be a courtesy runner. Doesn't matter if they're in the line-up or not.

Umpire got it wrong.
 
Joker

Joker

Well-Known Member
it looks like this has been clarified in the 2017 rule changes

Rule 8 Section 9C [2C] A second courtesy runner or substitute is not permitted at this time.
Comment: Clarifies that in Adult Slow Pitch Divisions of Play a substitute cannot be used for a courtesy runner.
 
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irishmafia

Addicted to Softballfans
Joker said:
it looks like this has been clarified in the 2017 rule changes

Rule 8 Section 9C [2C] A second courtesy runner or substitute is not permitted at this time.
Comment: Clarifies that in Adult Slow Pitch Divisions of Play a substitute cannot be used for a courtesy runner.
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Yeah, try noting the rest of the rule. This is only when a CR (on base) time at bat comes up. The CR is removed and called out and take their turn at bat
 
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D

defos

Well-Known Member
Joker said:
it looks like this has been clarified in the 2017 rule changes

Rule 8 Section 9C [2C] A second courtesy runner or substitute is not permitted at this time.
Comment: Clarifies that in Adult Slow Pitch Divisions of Play a substitute cannot be used for a courtesy runner.
Click to expand...

That part of the rule is saying if a player's turn at bat comes up while he is on base as a courtesy runner, you can't put a substitute runner in his place so he can bat.

However, the rule has been clarified in the Rules Supplement on page 132 in the 2017 rule book. There, C) says "In all Adult Slow Pitch except Seniors, courtesy runners may be ANY player on the line-up card and may be used once per inning."
Rule 8 Section B2 says "Any eligible players that may participate on offense or defense and are on the official lineup card including available substitutes may be used as a courtesy."
We don't use line-up cards, so our official roster determines who's eligible to play.

I had not seen the supplement until late last night. If I had, I wouldn't have needed to ask my original question. Thank you for the helpful answers.
 
Joker

Joker

Well-Known Member
I still don't understand how you can have a player come into the game that is not in the line up without a substitution. I can put a track star on my roster, never declare him on my line up, and have him be a courtesy runner without ever taking the field or an at bat or making a substitution?
 
Joker

Joker

Well-Known Member
defos said:
That part of the rule is saying if a player's turn at bat comes up while he is on base as a courtesy runner, you can't put a substitute runner in his place so he can bat.

However, the rule has been clarified in the Rules Supplement on page 132 in the 2017 rule book. There, C) says "In all Adult Slow Pitch except Seniors, courtesy runners may be ANY player on the line-up card and may be used once per inning."
Rule 8 Section B2 says "Any eligible players that may participate on offense or defense and are on the official lineup card including available substitutes may be used as a courtesy."
We don't use line-up cards, so our official roster determines who's eligible to play.

I had not seen the supplement until late last night. If I had, I wouldn't have needed to ask my original question. Thank you for the helpful answers.
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No line up card, that makes this a special situation
 
Sully

Sully

Wanna buy jerseys/rings?
Even with the lineup card he could basically have a Designated Courtesy Runner. Some young fast kid that is listed as a sub and never hits or plays the field.
 
NCASAUmp

NCASAUmp

Un-Retired
Joker said:
I still don't understand how you can have a player come into the game that is not in the line up without a substitution. I can put a track star on my roster, never declare him on my line up, and have him be a courtesy runner without ever taking the field or an at bat or making a substitution?
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Yep. Legal.
 
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irishmafia

Addicted to Softballfans
Joker said:
I still don't understand how you can have a player come into the game that is not in the line up without a substitution. I can put a track star on my roster, never declare him on my line up, and have him be a courtesy runner without ever taking the field or an at bat or making a substitution?
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I agree. Courtesy runners are for wimps and shouldn't be allowed at any time
 
EdFred

EdFred

every day I'm shovelin'
I am aware of that, but irish did say "shouldn't be allowed at any time." and did not mention any caveats or exceptions.

That said I do agree with forcing fat/slow/lazy/non-ADA players to run.
 
NCASAUmp

NCASAUmp

Un-Retired
EdFred said:
I am aware of that, but irish did say "shouldn't be allowed at any time." and did not mention any caveats or exceptions.

That said I do agree with forcing fat/slow/lazy/non-ADA players to run.
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Tubbies gots to run.

Hell, I'm a bit tubby myself, but I can still haul butt around the field. You don't see me asking for a courtesy umpire, do ya? :D
 
-Six-

-Six-

Weiner
I have seen the fat guy replaced with the skinny fast kid so many times. is it dooshy to call it out. I never have but sometimes when the game is close I want too
 
EdFred

EdFred

every day I'm shovelin'
-Six- said:
I have seen the fat guy replaced with the skinny fast kid so many times. is it dooshy to call it out. I never have but sometimes when the game is close I want too
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The other ones that crack me up, is a guy doubles, ran just fine to second, isn't huffing and puffing, and requests a runner. Then jogs/runs back to the dugout.
 
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irishmafia

Addicted to Softballfans
EdFred said:
I am aware of that, but irish did say "shouldn't be allowed at any time." and did not mention any caveats or exceptions.

That said I do agree with forcing fat/slow/lazy/non-ADA players to run.
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How did amputees play before courtesy runners? And yes, there were physically challenged players who played every part of the game prior to CRs even being a thought. And they were outstanding athletes willing and able to play the same game as everyone else and do it well.

That said, in today's environment, those willing to play should be allowed to use the rules to their advantage if available.
 
Zpete1

Zpete1

Extra Hitter
Sorry to bring this old subject back up. But with the courtesy runner, say the batter hits a double and requests for a courtesy runner. Does that courtesy runner have to go back to first?
 
NCASAUmp

NCASAUmp

Un-Retired
Jackie-Chan-WTF.jpg
 
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