USSSA base dislodged... dead ball

[oldsoftballer]

Situation last night occurred and really had no bearing on game, but I was curious about the call. This may be just a local rule? This was in a USSSA game.

Runner coming into third and slides and in doing so knocks ball out the glove and ball then rolls into the dugout. The magnetic base also came dislodged during the slide. I expected the runner to be awarded home since the ball went into the dugout... umpire said it became a dead ball when the base was dislodged and runner was to stay at 3rd.

May not have any effect, but throw was made by our 1st baseman after runner was past 2nd.

Should the runner have been awarded home since ball went out of play into the dugout OR does dead ball occur immediately and the result of the ball going out of play then wouldn't matter?

 

[BretMan]

I'm not aware of any baseball/softball organization that declares an immediate dead ball when a base becomes dislodged. This sounds more like a "rule misinterpretation" than an actual "local rule".

Really, why punish the runner/offensive team by preventing them from advancing the bases when they did nothing wrong and broke no rules?

On this one, I'd have a live ball...up until the point that it rolled into the dugout. Then I'd have a two base award for the runners (either from time of pitch or time of throw, depending on the circumstances).

BTW...In their rule book, USSSA covers a dislodged base in two places: Rule 8-8-C and 8-12-J. Neither place notes that the ball is dead. In fact, in both places it gives a rather lengthy explanation of how the runner can continue running and what his responsibilities are for either staying with the dislodged base or leaving it, plus additional directions for the umpire and he's supposed to handle this.

I don't think that they would need those two long explanations if the ball was already dead!

 

[Taprootgft]

I'm not aware of any baseball/softball organization that declares an immediate dead ball when a base becomes dislodged. This sounds more like a "rule misinterpretation" than an actual "local rule".

Really, why punish the runner/offensive team by preventing them from advancing the bases when they did nothing wrong and broke no rules?

On this one, I'd have a live ball...up until the point that it rolled into the dugout. Then I'd have a two base award for the runners (either from time of pitch or time of throw, depending on the circumstances).

BTW...In their rule book, USSSA covers a dislodged base in two places: Rule 8-8-C and 8-12-J. Neither place notes that the ball is dead. In fact, in both places it gives a rather lengthy explanation of how the runner can continue running and what his responsibilities are for either staying with the dislodged base or leaving it, plus additional directions for the umpire and he's supposed to handle this.

I don't think that they would need those two long explanations if the ball was already dead!

Out of curiosity, are you supposed to run towards a dislodged base? or where the base should be? And now that the base is dislodged how would the umpire handle calling a non-force play?

 

[EsqUmp]

While I'm not positive about USSSA, most codes rule the following way with respect to the awarding of bases:

If the defensive player had actual possession of the ball and the ball became dislodged as a result of the runner sliding into the tag, each runner gets ONE base from the time the ball goes out of play. Normally, the runner who caused the ball to become dislodged will have already reached the base to which they are sliding by the time the ball goes out of play, but that's not always the case and that's not always true of the trailing runners either.

A dislodged ball has a different awarding of bases than a typical thrown ball.

Players are required to touch the spot where the base was originally located.

 

[NCASAUmp]

While I'm not positive about USSSA, most codes rule the following way with respect to the awarding of bases:

If the defensive player had actual possession of the ball and the ball became dislodged as a result of the runner sliding into the tag, each runner gets ONE base from the time the ball goes out of play. Normally, the runner who caused the ball to become dislodged will have already reached the base to which they are sliding by the time the ball goes out of play, but that's not always the case and that's not always true of the trailing runners either.

A dislodged ball has a different awarding of bases than a typical thrown ball.

Players are required to touch the spot where the base was originally located.

Could you please provide a rule citation to back your statement?

Also, for the sake of avoiding confusion among the players, could you please download and go through the USSSA rule book to make sure you're not giving people bad information?

Around here, "I think" is just as dangerous as "I know" when "Ump" is in your name.

 

[baldgriff]

As far as where you go when the base is dislodged, you are allowed to stay either in the spot that the base originally was or where the base is now located.

 

[BretMan]

The ASA rule covering a ball going out of play after a fielder loses possession of it on a tag attempt is 8-5-G (EXCEPTION 1). Runners get one base.

I don't see a similar rule or exception in the USSSA rule book....which doesn't surprise me.

Unless they have some "super secret hidden interpretations" we're not privy to, they do appear to make this a two-base award.

 

[mikeh25]

Runner coming into third and slides and in doing so knocks ball out the glove and ball then rolls into the dugout.

Was the tag applied with a controlled ball prior to the ball being knocked out of the glove?

 

[EsqUmp]

Could you please provide a rule citation to back your statement?

Come on. That is too easy. When your name has "ASA" in it, you should be able to find a base award pretty easily in the rule book; or at least not admit you don't know it and look it up before asking. Let's be serious.

Around here, "I think" is just as dangerous as "I know" when "Ump" is in your name.

When you use quotation marks, it normally means you are quoting someone.

 

[Pylon #00]

Out of curiosity, are you supposed to run towards a dislodged base? or where the base should be? And now that the base is dislodged how would the umpire handle calling a non-force play?

A good umpire will usually cover the policy for break away bases in the pre-game conference.

If a runner slides into a base and it becomes dislodged he can either stay in the area where the base was attached, or stay in contact with the detached base. If he does either of those things, he is not in jeopardy of being tagged out.

 

[Taprootgft]

A good umpire will usually cover the policy for break away bases in the pre-game conference.

If a runner slides into a base and it becomes dislodged he can either stay in the area where the base was attached, or stay in contact with the detached base. If he does either of those things, he is not in jeopardy of being tagged out.

Cool beans, but what about the 2nd part? Say I'm sliding into 2nd, I dislodge the bag, the throw is bad and goes up the first base line so myself and the guy at first take off to the next base, 1st baseman get the ball fires it to the defender standing at where 2nd base would be, its going to be a bang bang play how would the ump make the call? And does the runner slide into the dislodged bag or where it should be?

 

[EsqUmp]

A good umpire will usually cover the policy for break away bases in the pre-game conference.

Actually, that rule is so clearly covered by the rules that it would be over officious to even bring it up.

 

[Pylon #00]

Cool beans, but what about the 2nd part? Say I'm sliding into 2nd, I dislodge the bag, the throw is bad and goes up the first base line so myself and the guy at first take off to the next base, 1st baseman get the ball fires it to the defender standing at where 2nd base would be, its going to be a bang bang play how would the ump make the call? And does the runner slide into the dislodged bag or where it should be?

In that situation, he should go to the area where the base should be.

 

[Pylon #00]

Actually, that rule is so clearly covered by the rules that it would be over officious to even bring it up.

I don't know what association you allegedly officiate, but at every state and national level umpire clinic I have ever attended they have discussed what to cover during the pre-game conference. Any ground rules specific to the particular field (openings in the fence, over hanging trees, break away bases, etc) are almost always one of the topics suggested.

 

[EsqUmp]

I don't know what association you allegedly officiate, but at every state and national level umpire clinic I have ever attended they have discussed what to cover during the pre-game conference. Any ground rules specific to the particular field (openings in the fence, over hanging trees, break away bases, etc) are almost always one of the topics suggested.

It's clearly spelled out in the rule book, so why are you covering it? They are called "Ground Rules" to cover specific things unique to the field. Break away bases are anything but unique.

Do you also cover what happens after the batter receives ball four; or perhaps what happens when the batter hits the ball over the fence in fair territory on the fly? I'd hate to see that go unaddressed and cause confusion to the players.

 

[Pylon #00]

It's clearly spelled out in the rule book, so why are you covering it? They are called "Ground Rules" to cover specific things unique to the field. Break away bases are anything but unique.

Do you also cover what happens after the batter receives ball four; or perhaps what happens when the batter hits the ball over the fence in fair territory on the fly? I'd hate to see that go unaddressed and cause confusion to the players.

Would you care to cite the rule from the USSSA rule book? Do all fields have break away bases?

I have seen a few of your posts in this section and they are all attempts at trolling people for a negative response. I'm not going to waste my time.

 

[EsqUmp]

Would you care to cite the rule from the USSSA rule book? Do all fields have break away bases?

Rule 8-6-d. Dislodged bases - that includes breakaways.

 

[Pylon #00]

Rule 8-6-d. Dislodged bases - that includes breakaways.

2012 USSSA RULE BOOK

RULE 8
BASERUNNING

SEC. 6. THE BASE RUNNERS ARE ENTITLED TO ADVANCE WITH LIABILITY TO BE PUT OUT:

D. When a live thrown ball strikes the person of an umpire or baserunner.

EFFECT SEC. 6 B-G. In all these cases, the ball remains live with all runners continuing to be in jeopardy.

Ummmmm......

 

[NCASAUmp]

Come on. That is too easy. When your name has "ASA" in it, you should be able to find a base award pretty easily in the rule book; or at least not admit you don't know it and look it up before asking. Let's be serious.

You still haven't provided a proper rule citation regarding the ball going into dead ball territory.

When you use quotation marks, it normally means you are quoting someone.

I'm well-versed in how to use quotes, thank you. Stick to the topic at hand.

 

[EsqUmp]

8-5-G-1 & R/S 38, at least in 2009

 

[EsqUmp]

8-6-D: When a runner dislodges a base from its proper position, neither the
runner nor the succeeding runner(s) in the same series of plays are
compelled to follow a base out of position.

 

[NCASAUmp]

8-5-G-1 & R/S 38, at least in 2009

I'm fully aware of the ASA rule. That's not the issue. The OP is asking for USSSA, and you're providing the incorrect citations.

This is why I advised that you need to be cautious when responding to a request for a rule interpretation when you have "Ump" in your name. This isn't the field. We're not expected to make a ruling right here and right now. We have plenty of time to look up rule citations before answering, and I believe that's what the players here have come to expect from us.

So rather than give these guys an "I think," they should either get an "I know" or an "I don't know, but I will find out for you."

 

[EsqUmp]

I'm fully aware of the ASA rule. That's not the issue. The OP is asking for USSSA, and you're providing the incorrect citations.

As you requested, I downloaded the USSSA rule book.

Rule 8-6-D deals with a dislodged base. "When a runner dislodges a base from its proper position, neither the runner nor the succeeding runner(s) in the same series of plays are compelled to follow a base out of position. "

Rule 8-14-D-2 deals with a one base award. "One base if a fielder loses possession of the ball on a tag play and the ball enters dead-ball area."

Sorry for quoting from more than one book. I certainly have never seen the same question addressed under multiple codes in this forum before

 

[NCASAUmp]

As you requested, I downloaded the USSSA rule book.

Rule 8-6-D deals with a dislodged base. "When a runner dislodges a base from its proper position, neither the runner nor the succeeding runner(s) in the same series of plays are compelled to follow a base out of position. "

Rule 8-14-D-2 deals with a one base award. "One base if a fielder loses possession of the ball on a tag play and the ball enters dead-ball area."

Okay, now we know why there's such confusion. You're quoting the fast pitch rule book.

The reason I asked for a citation is because in the USSSA slow pitch rule book (which, 99% of the time, is what the players are actually asking about), USSSA does not have anything that explicitly deals with a fielder losing possession of the ball, and that ball ending up in dead ball territory (other than on an overthrow). USSSA only refers to a blocked ball in the context of an overthrow, and in those cases, they get two bases either from the pitch or from the point of release (depending on whether it was on the first throw made by an infielder).

Sorry for quoting from more than one book. I certainly have never seen the same question addressed under multiple codes in this forum before

Happens all the time here. Thus, we must be careful when giving these guys answers if we aren't absolutely sure. There's enough bad information floating around out there, and those of us who have been in this section a while have taken great care in doing our best to provide accurate interpretations to these players.

That's the reputation we've earned here. That's what we have to protect.