ASA Can a fielder use the safety bag in specific situations?

Chembry

Chembry

Addicted to Softballfans
We had an unusual play in a game the other night:

I was playing first and had a hard shot handcuff me. The ball bounced off of me and went into foul territory. I ran into foul territory, grabbed the ball, and threw to the pitcher covering first for the out. He touched first base and NOT the safety bag. The question came up, for safety, since I was in foul territory when I grabbed the ball, can we use the safety bag to make the out?

I asked two umps that night and got two different answers. The first up said yes, since I was in foul territory when I grabbed the ball. The second ump said no. He said the play has to originate in foul territory for the fielder to use the safety bag (i.e. a dropped third strike). Since the play originated in fair territory, the play had to be made on first base.

I am just curious what the other ASA umps say.
 
Y

yank

Addicted to Softballfans
Not positive but think the pitcher has to use the safety bag but if you made the play coming from foul territory you wouldn't have to.
 
Joker

Joker

Well-Known Member
why would the pitcher have to go across the batter/runners lane to the safety bag in foul territory? defeats the whole purpose of a safety bag
 
U

ureout

The Veteran
Chembry said:
We had an unusual play in a game the other night:

I was playing first and had a hard shot handcuff me. The ball bounced off of me and went into foul territory. I ran into foul territory, grabbed the ball, and threw to the pitcher covering first for the out. He touched first base and NOT the safety bag. The question came up, for safety, since I was in foul territory when I grabbed the ball, can we use the safety bag to make the out?

I asked two umps that night and got two different answers. The first up said yes, since I was in foul territory when I grabbed the ball. The second ump said no. He said the play has to originate in foul territory for the fielder to use the safety bag (i.e. a dropped third strike). Since the play originated in fair territory, the play had to be made on first base.

I am just curious what the other ASA umps say.
Click to expand...

yes they can and it's an awful rule.. you should never reward the defense for an errant throw..

Section 2. BATTER-RUNNER IS OUT.

M. The double base shall be used at first base in all divisions of play. The following
rules should be enforced:
1. A batted ball hitting or bounding over the white portion is fair.
2. A batted ball hitting or bounding over the colored portion is foul.
3. When a play is being made on the batter-runner, the defense must
use the white portion and the batter-runner the colored portion of the
base.
EFFECT: The batter-runner is out when there is a play being made at
first base and the batter-runner touches only the white portion, providing
the defense appeals prior to the batter-runner returning to first base.
Once the runner returns to the white or colored portion of the base, an
appeal shall not be honored.
4. On any force out attempt from the foul side of first base the defense
and the batter-runner may use either the white or colored portion of the
base.
5. On an errant throw pulling the defense off the white portion of the base
into foul ground, the defense and the batter-runner can use either the
white or colored portion.
6. On balls hit to the outfield with no play
.
 
Chembry

Chembry

Addicted to Softballfans
Joker said:
why would the pitcher have to go across the batter/runners lane to the safety bag in foul territory? defeats the whole purpose of a safety bag
Click to expand...

If the play is in foul territory and if the fielder covering the bag has to make the play from the base, then it’s a safety concern. Theoretically, the thrown ball and the runner could cross the bag at the same time causing the runner to get hit by the ball. Also the fielder covering the bag will be reaching for the ball, possibly causing a collision.

Again, this was an unusual situation. Since I got different answers from different umpires, I would like to know the real answer.
 
Chembry

Chembry

Addicted to Softballfans
ureout said:
yes they can and it's an awful rule.. you should never reward the defense for an errant throw..

Section 2. BATTER-RUNNER IS OUT.

M. The double base shall be used at first base in all divisions of play. The following
rules should be enforced:
1. A batted ball hitting or bounding over the white portion is fair.
2. A batted ball hitting or bounding over the colored portion is foul.
3. When a play is being made on the batter-runner, the defense must
use the white portion and the batter-runner the colored portion of the
base.
EFFECT: The batter-runner is out when there is a play being made at
first base and the batter-runner touches only the white portion, providing
the defense appeals prior to the batter-runner returning to first base.
Once the runner returns to the white or colored portion of the base, an
appeal shall not be honored.
4. On any force out attempt from the foul side of first base the defense
and the batter-runner may use either the white or colored portion of the
base.
5. On an errant throw pulling the defense off the white portion of the base
into foul ground, the defense and the batter-runner can use either the
white or colored portion.
6. On balls hit to the outfield with no play
.
Click to expand...
Thanks!
 
Joker

Joker

Well-Known Member
Chembry said:
If the play is in foul territory and if the fielder covering the bag has to make the play from the base, then it’s a safety concern. Theoretically, the thrown ball and the runner could cross the bag at the same time causing the runner to get hit by the ball. Also the fielder covering the bag will be reaching for the ball, possibly causing a collision.

Again, this was an unusual situation. Since I got different answers from different umpires, I would like to know the real answer.
Click to expand...
A ball is a lot smaller than a player
 
U

ureout

The Veteran
Joker said:
His comment is about an errant throw
Click to expand...

The question came up, for safety, since I was in foul territory when I grabbed the ball, can we use the safety bag to make the out?..

and how did the ball get from the 1st baseman to the pitcher??... if the 1st baseman made a good throw to the pitcher he would have been able to use the white bag
 
K

kvander

Addicted to Softballfans
ureout said:
The question came up, for safety, since I was in foul territory when I grabbed the ball, can we use the safety bag to make the out?..

and how did the ball get from the 1st baseman to the pitcher??... if the 1st baseman made a good throw to the pitcher he would have been able to use the white bag
Click to expand...

ureout said:
yes they can and it's an awful rule.. you should never reward the defense for an errant throw..
Click to expand...

The point of a safety bag is to avoid collisions. When the play is on the foul side of the base, there is less likelihood of a collision if the defense uses the safety base and the runner passes the fielder to the left, over the white base. (Unless the pitcher would collide with the runner as he/she crossed the base path)
 
Chembry

Chembry

Addicted to Softballfans
ureout said:
The question came up, for safety, since I was in foul territory when I grabbed the ball, can we use the safety bag to make the out?..

and how did the ball get from the 1st baseman to the pitcher??... if the 1st baseman made a good throw to the pitcher he would have been able to use the white bag
Click to expand...

Thanks for the rule! But it wasn't and errant throw. The ground ball handcuffed me at first and bounced off my shoulder into foul territory. I had to go into foul territory to make the throw to force the runner at first. A good throw would have still had to cross the safety bag and runner. We were lucky enough that the runner was slow so we didn't have the runner hit by the ball or a collision from the pitcher stretching for the ball using the white bag to make the out. The throw did cross the safety bag and the runner, but the runner was about 2-3 steps from the bag yet.

Again thanks for the rule and that helps significantly.
 
Joker

Joker

Well-Known Member
ureout said:
The question came up, for safety, since I was in foul territory when I grabbed the ball, can we use the safety bag to make the out?..

and how did the ball get from the 1st baseman to the pitcher??... if the 1st baseman made a good throw to the pitcher he would have been able to use the white bag
Click to expand...
you didn't read the 1st post
 
I

irishmafia

Addicted to Softballfans
JFC, y'all make everything so difficult. If throw is coming from the left of the 1st base line, the defender uses the white base and the runner uses the colored base. If the throw is coming from the foul side of the 1st base line, the defense and the runner may use either. If the throw draws the defender toward foul territory, either may use both. The last is the dumbest damn interpretation that was not part of the original rule or interpretation.
 
andy-rockstar

andy-rockstar

Living for the Cit-ay
irishmafia said:
And who gets to decide that?
Click to expand...

In the split-second that a play is taking place, the defender at the bag and the batter-runner. I know it's wishful thinking to have baserunners be generally aware of what's happening in front of them and be able to adjust accordingly to avoid collisions or getting hurt, but that's essentially why the orange bag is even on the field.
 
U

Umpiresoftball171

Member
Chembry said:
We had an unusual play in a game the other night:

I was playing first and had a hard shot handcuff me. The ball bounced off of me and went into foul territory. I ran into foul territory, grabbed the ball, and threw to the pitcher covering first for the out. He touched first base and NOT the safety bag. The question came up, for safety, since I was in foul territory when I grabbed the ball, can we use the safety bag to make the out?

I asked two umps that night and got two different answers. The first up said yes, since I was in foul territory when I grabbed the ball. The second ump said no. He said the play has to originate in foul territory for the fielder to use the safety bag (i.e. a dropped third strike). Since the play originated in fair territory, the play had to be made on first base.

I am just curious what the other ASA umps say.
Click to expand...

This one really matters on where the ball is i know i read somewhere in rule book. (please correct me if i am wrong as my rules books in car and i am to tired and lazy right now to get them. that over throw to first base.... the fielder can't used the orange bag. and the runner can go to white bag.
 
NCASAUmp

NCASAUmp

Un-Retired
If the play is coming from foul territory, both the offense and defense have their choice of bag to use. The same applies if an errant throw pulls the fielder into foul territory.
 
wcoastsoftball

wcoastsoftball

Moderator
irishmafia said:
And that is absolutely a terrible allowance that completely contradicts the entire purpose of the rule.
Click to expand...
Our league allows the use in this situation as well. But at that point, the runner can use the regular bag as well. So if they have a choice, why can't the fielder?
 
I

irishmafia

Addicted to Softballfans
wcoastsoftball said:
Our league allows the use in this situation as well. But at that point, the runner can use the regular bag as well. So if they have a choice, why can't the fielder?
Click to expand...

Because it rewards the defense for poor play and places both players in physical jeopardy. The original rule made an allowance for the defender to follow the ball into foul territory and COME BACK to either portion of the base to make the play, but did not alleviate the OBS side. Now simply going for the errant throw gives the defender the right to move to catch the ball and come down right on the colored portion for the out. It could still be ruled OBS, but for the possibility of an out, the fielder has no incentive to avoid the runner or give him time to realize the defenders movement and move inside to avoid a collision. The rule defeats the purpose of its own existence.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top