runner on 1st ground ball hit to F4, F6 is covering 2B, the throw is a little wide and when F6 reaches out with his foot he misses the bag he then follows thru with a throw to 1B for an attempted double play, the runner that was on 1st had actually stopped advancing and when he didn't hear an out call at 2B he proceeded to the bag, after the play the defense complained that a safe call should have been made when F6 missed the bag therefore giving him the opportunity to re-touch the bag, should I have made a safe call?
ASA do I make a safe call
- Thread starter jonsey
- Start date
NCASAUmp
Un-Retired
Yes, I’d make a safe call. A play was attempted on a runner, and both teams need to know the result.
The problem is that you’ve also got a potential bang-bang play at 1B, so you may not have enough time for the usual mechanic of calling “off the bag, SAFE!” without looking completely rushed. If you can, point to the foot, call out “pulled, SAFE!” as you pívot for the second play. Make sure you aren’t facing 1B when you make your safe call, or you’ll really confuse everyone.
The problem is that you’ve also got a potential bang-bang play at 1B, so you may not have enough time for the usual mechanic of calling “off the bag, SAFE!” without looking completely rushed. If you can, point to the foot, call out “pulled, SAFE!” as you pívot for the second play. Make sure you aren’t facing 1B when you make your safe call, or you’ll really confuse everyone.
Hiltz
Built for comfort
I'm not a trained umpire and I'm not sure what the textbook mechanics are for this scenario. But in one of our local leagues we self-ump and in a situation like this I always yell something like "Safe at two! Out at one!" to avoid confusing both the runners and the defense.
thx for the answers, but how can I call the runner safe when he hasn't attained the bag yet? wouldn't that be letting the defense know? I would think a know call is the same thing if the defense doesn't hear the out call then they know it's still a live play on that runner. I've looked in the rule book and also points of emphasis and can't find anything ... is there an answer in a umpire mechanics book thx.
NCASAUmp
Un-Retired
Good questions. Let me clarify my response a little bit here.
In your scenario, F6 attempted to tag the base, but missed 2B. He then threw the ball to 1B to attempt to retire the batter-runner.
Once he threw the ball, his attempt to make a play on the runner is done. He made the attempt, so we need to give a ruling. If he had held the ball instead of throwing it, I would have hesitated slightly to see what he would have done before giving my safe call, because he still had an opportunity to correct his mistake and get the out.
But once he threw the ball, that’s on him. He should know he didn’t touch the base, so calling the runner safe doesn’t tip anyone off. The defense attempted a play on a runner, they failed, so we should give our ruling.
The defense can go pound sand with their argument.
In your scenario, F6 attempted to tag the base, but missed 2B. He then threw the ball to 1B to attempt to retire the batter-runner.
Once he threw the ball, his attempt to make a play on the runner is done. He made the attempt, so we need to give a ruling. If he had held the ball instead of throwing it, I would have hesitated slightly to see what he would have done before giving my safe call, because he still had an opportunity to correct his mistake and get the out.
But once he threw the ball, that’s on him. He should know he didn’t touch the base, so calling the runner safe doesn’t tip anyone off. The defense attempted a play on a runner, they failed, so we should give our ruling.
The defense can go pound sand with their argument.
yes that call makes sense to me, I'm not tipping off the defense that they missed the bag and when the runner does not hear an out call at 2nd he should proceed to the bag and therefore be on the bag and safe... hopefully NCASA will find something in writing
DeputyUICHousto
Addicted to Softballfans
This is out of the 2021 Umpire Manual:
Umpires should say “SAFE” while giving the safe signal when a runner beats the ball to a base on a force out attempt and likewise say “OUT” while giving an out signal when the ball beats the runner to the base. The same would apply on a tag play when a runner avoids the tag by the defense, an umpire should say “SAFE” while giving the safe signal and likewise say “OUT” while giving an out signal when the runner is tagged by the defense. A good verbal call and strong signal should be given simultaneously. The volume of the voice should reflect the closeness of the play.
Umpires should say “SAFE” while giving the safe signal when a runner beats the ball to a base on a force out attempt and likewise say “OUT” while giving an out signal when the ball beats the runner to the base. The same would apply on a tag play when a runner avoids the tag by the defense, an umpire should say “SAFE” while giving the safe signal and likewise say “OUT” while giving an out signal when the runner is tagged by the defense. A good verbal call and strong signal should be given simultaneously. The volume of the voice should reflect the closeness of the play.
DeputyUICHousto
Addicted to Softballfans
it also says this:
b. With a runner at 1B in a Two Umpire system, the Base Umpire will be counter rotated between 1st and 2nd base, and a ground ball to the infield for a possible double play, make two movements from the starting position. When the play goes to 2B, take one or two parallel steps toward 2B to watch the play and push off with the right foot 62 UMPIRE MANUAL and make the call while moving parallel to the baseline toward 1B. Without taking your eyes off the play, let the ball turn your head to the play at 1B. Move to obtain and maintain an unobstructed view, stop, read the play and make the call.
b. With a runner at 1B in a Two Umpire system, the Base Umpire will be counter rotated between 1st and 2nd base, and a ground ball to the infield for a possible double play, make two movements from the starting position. When the play goes to 2B, take one or two parallel steps toward 2B to watch the play and push off with the right foot 62 UMPIRE MANUAL and make the call while moving parallel to the baseline toward 1B. Without taking your eyes off the play, let the ball turn your head to the play at 1B. Move to obtain and maintain an unobstructed view, stop, read the play and make the call.
Deputy, Thx for that post, but my OP was should a safe call be made if the fielder misses the bag? He then followed thru with a throw to 1B for an attempted double play, I don't think any call should be made, IMO calling safe tips off the defensive player that he missed the bag and also how can I make a safe call when the runner was still 10' or more from the bag
DeputyUICHousto
Addicted to Softballfans
I agree with NCA, a play was made. By not making a call you could be putting the runner in jeopardy. If you read my second post it says "and make the call while moving"...I think that is fairly clear.
DeputyUICHousto
Addicted to Softballfans
Also, you said "how can I make a safe call when the runner is 10' away from the bag?". If he was out, even though he was 10' away from the bag are you going to call him out, or wait until he gets to the bag? Its a play, you have to make a call.
Deputy, again thx.. and I'm not arguing, just trying to understand.
I agree 100% with the mechanics you posted using a 2 man system, but what you posted didn't really tell the proper mechanics for a defensive player attempting to make a play but misses the bag. they were about the defense actually catching and touching the base
In your 1st post you give examples from the 2021 Umpire Manual saying that "Umpires should say “SAFE” while giving the safe signal when a runner beats the ball to a base on a force out attempt and likewise say “OUT” while giving an out signal when the ball beats the runner to the base.
In my scenario the ball actually never beat the runner to the base because the throw was off line.
This is a different scenario, but to me the same result. If the play was at 1st base and the runner is about 5ft from the bag, the throw to the 1st baseman was wide pulling him off the bag, would you make a safe call immediately or would you wait for the defender to try to re-tag the bag and then judge whether the runner beat him to the bag, and if he didn't you would have to reverse your original safe call?
as far as the runner being put in jeopardy for no safe call, I believe just the opposite, by calling safe you have told the defense they missed the bag, and that would definitely put the runner in jeopardy, also the runner SHOULD ALWAYS proceed to the next base until he hears an out call.
I agree 100% with the mechanics you posted using a 2 man system, but what you posted didn't really tell the proper mechanics for a defensive player attempting to make a play but misses the bag. they were about the defense actually catching and touching the base
In your 1st post you give examples from the 2021 Umpire Manual saying that "Umpires should say “SAFE” while giving the safe signal when a runner beats the ball to a base on a force out attempt and likewise say “OUT” while giving an out signal when the ball beats the runner to the base.
In my scenario the ball actually never beat the runner to the base because the throw was off line.
This is a different scenario, but to me the same result. If the play was at 1st base and the runner is about 5ft from the bag, the throw to the 1st baseman was wide pulling him off the bag, would you make a safe call immediately or would you wait for the defender to try to re-tag the bag and then judge whether the runner beat him to the bag, and if he didn't you would have to reverse your original safe call?
as far as the runner being put in jeopardy for no safe call, I believe just the opposite, by calling safe you have told the defense they missed the bag, and that would definitely put the runner in jeopardy, also the runner SHOULD ALWAYS proceed to the next base until he hears an out call.
DeputyUICHousto
Addicted to Softballfans
I'm not going to argue this any further. I've given you what the Umpire Manual says and given my personal opinion. A play was made by the defense on a runner...a call must be made. Good luck.
Umpiresoftball171
Member
in this case since he or she miss the bag you act as they got the bag intill in appeal happens or they are touch the base after. go ask the umpires you work for advice on it as well. they won't steer you wrong.
again thx for all the answers. I received this answer from an ASA UIC that I e-mailed and to me it's seems to be the best mechanic
To answer the title question: yes, a call should be made but not necessarily a safe call, after the defender releases the ball to 1st base you can clarify by giving an off the base sweeping of the arms signal and verbalizing "He's off the base." . There was an attempted play that failed, so it is not only proper but required to make a call.
To answer the title question: yes, a call should be made but not necessarily a safe call, after the defender releases the ball to 1st base you can clarify by giving an off the base sweeping of the arms signal and verbalizing "He's off the base." . There was an attempted play that failed, so it is not only proper but required to make a call.
DeputyUICHousto
Addicted to Softballfans
I have another thought regarding this "play". Jonesy, what would you do if the same play occurred but F6 never attempts to throw to F4? According to your scenario, you wouldn't make a call. By not making a call (a play has been made) you put someone in jeopardy.
I would definitely not make a safe call as you stated to do above because the runner is not yet safe, what I would now do to clarify that he missed the base is give an off the base sweeping of the arms signal
I have 1 back at you, B/R hits a ground ball to the F6 who throws wide to 1st pulling F4 way off the bag, the B/R is still 5 steps from the bag, the bad throw to 1st constitutes that a play has been made on the B/R are you going to immediately call the B/R safe when F4 is pulled off the bag trying to catch the bad throw or are you going to wait and let the play finish until the B/R actually reaches 1B then call safe?
I have 1 back at you, B/R hits a ground ball to the F6 who throws wide to 1st pulling F4 way off the bag, the B/R is still 5 steps from the bag, the bad throw to 1st constitutes that a play has been made on the B/R are you going to immediately call the B/R safe when F4 is pulled off the bag trying to catch the bad throw or are you going to wait and let the play finish until the B/R actually reaches 1B then call safe?