ASA donuts on end of bats

[oppo]

Why does everything have to be a "rule?" Just curious as to this "show me the rule" mentality.

Is it not an umpires job to officiate the game according to the rules? I am certainly not suggesting that it is your job to answer questions on this forum but on the field your job definitely is to make sure the rules of the game are followed. Without rules, there is no consistency and chaos ensues.

Oh boy... When will you get it that umpires are not cops? Your 4th Amendment rights do not apply, son.

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Where does it say that if you are not a LEO that you have the right to take someones property against there wishes? Last time I checked, the US constitution applied to every citizen of this country. This is really a much more simple matter to deal with than it is being made out to be. IF the rules require a player to demonstrate that all property brought into the dugout conforms to the rules then so be it. Have them do that. If they don't, simply apply the rules. If that means they don't play then they don't play. IF you take someones property without concent or especially after they have specifically denied concent, you are stealing. The easy way to handle is to simply inform them to comply to the rules or don't play. The league or association rules do not supercede the law so why put yourself in that situation when you don't have to?

 

[oppo]

I've already said that an umpire going into a player's bag is ill-advised, and I simply don't do it. I have the PLAYER go into the bag, and when I'm calling a tournament, there's typically a VERY specific process that's involved when an illegal/altered/non-approved bat is discovered.

Just figured that I would point out that I am not suggesting that you have advocated umpires going into bags and taking personal property.

 

[NCASAUmp]

Is it not an umpires job to officiate the game according to the rules? I am certainly not suggesting that it is your job to answer questions on this forum but on the field your job definitely is to make sure the rules of the game are followed. Without rules, there is no consistency and chaos ensues.

Wow, you're completely missing the point.

I'm not advocating enforcing rules that aren't there. What I'm saying is that not every step taken when umpiring is written down in the rule book. The book doesn't say that umpires must chew their gum a certain way, or give detailed instructions on how to examine a bat. It doesn't say anything about whether an umpire should announce how many outs there are, or even whether an umpire should keep his/her shades on when talking to a coach. A lot of it boils down to procedure, and it doesn't have to be written down.

But I guess that concept is lost on you, isn't it?

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Where does it say that if you are not a LEO that you have the right to take someones property against there wishes? Last time I checked, the US constitution applied to every citizen of this country. This is really a much more simple matter to deal with than it is being made out to be. IF the rules require a player to demonstrate that all property brought into the dugout conforms to the rules then so be it. Have them do that. If they don't, simply apply the rules. If that means they don't play then they don't play. IF you take someones property without concent or especially after they have specifically denied concent, you are stealing. The easy way to handle is to simply inform them to comply to the rules or don't play. The league or association rules do not supercede the law so why put yourself in that situation when you don't have to?

Again, you're completely missing the point. If an illegal/altered/non-approved bat is checked by the umpire, the umpire has the right to confiscate it during the tournament.

Period.

There's no Miranda rights. There's no search warrant involved. Your equipment is on the field (and dugouts are a part of the field), and the umpires are going to check it. That's how it is, and not just in ASA, but in many (if not all) other associations. If you agreed to play under an association's rules and under their Code, then the bats can and WILL be removed if the umpire says so.

You can stomp your feet and pout all you want, but your constitutional rights don't mean jack on the ballfield. You brought it onto the premises. We have every right to check it.

 

[Joker]

you know that roster you sign, the one that says you will abide by the rules? there go all your so called "rights"

 

[oppo]

Wow, you're completely missing the point.

I'm not advocating enforcing rules that aren't there. What I'm saying is that not every step taken when umpiring is written down in the rule book. But I guess that concept is lost on you, isn't it?

Not at all but if you are exercising authority then either there is something written that applies or you are making your own rules. One of the two is the case. What is wrong with someone wanting to know what gives you the authority to enforce whatever "rule" you are enforcing? In other words, if non-aproved bats are not allowed in the dugout then somewhere there is either something from the governing body or the league stating that to be the case wether it is in the actual rule book or not. If there is nothing from the association or league then you are enforcing rules that aren't there. Either way, it is a legitimate question.



Again, you're completely missing the point. If an illegal/altered/non-approved bat is checked by the umpire, the umpire has the right to confiscate it during the tournament.

Period.

I would love to see how this would play out if law enforcement were involved. You have every right to not allow the bat to be used and every right to not allow the player to participate but to take someones property against there wishes is stealing. Period.

There's no Miranda rights. There's no search warrant involved. Your equipment is on the field (and dugouts are a part of the field), and the umpires are going to check it. That's how it is, and not just in ASA, but in many (if not all) other associations. If you agreed to play under an association's rules and under their Code, then the bats can and WILL be removed if the umpire says so.

Who said anything about Miranda rights? That has to do with being arrested. Again, removing and taking possesion of against the owners wishes are completely different things.

You can stomp your feet and pout all you want, but your constitutional rights don't mean jack on the ballfield. You brought it onto the premises. We have every right to check it.

I am not stomping or pouting. I am typing on a keyboard and posting on an internet forum but any individual or association that believes that they are above the constitution is on a serious power trip. Rights are rights, period. Once again, checking and taking are definitely not the same thing. One more thing to add. Unless that roster sheet that each player signs specifically states that agree to the siezure of bats on the premises and not just those actually used in games, there is ZERO arguement about having the right to take that bat.

Here is my point. Leagues and associations can set the rules in order for a player to be allowed to compete and umpires can enforce those rules. They do not however have any right to violate a person's right or take their property against their wishes. They can however not allow the player to participate. Either way, problem solved.


Don't get me wrong. I would LOVE to see every shaved bat out there destroyed and rules are rules and if you want to play you have to abide by them unless you own your own field and host your own game.

 

[oppo]

you know that roster you sign, the one that says you will abide by the rules? there go all your so called "rights"

Not really. Rights are just that, period.

 

[NCASAUmp]

Not at all but if you are exercising authority then either there is something written that applies or you are making your own rules. One of the two is the case. What is wrong with someone wanting to know what gives you the authority to enforce whatever "rule" you are enforcing? In other words, if non-aproved bats are not allowed in the dugout then somewhere there is either something from the governing body or the league stating that to be the case wether it is in the actual rule book or not. If there is nothing from the association or league then you are enforcing rules that aren't there. Either way, it is a legitimate question.

Hello, McFly, anybody home?

Do you really need everything spelled out in rules? Maybe how to walk? Maybe how to swing your bat?

Not everything needs to be spelled out in rules. You already know what bats are and aren't allowed, so why bring 'em? Leave them where they belong: elsewhere. If you bring them to a tournament and they are not allowed, the sanctioning body has the right to confiscate it for the time being. Why? It's a preventative measure.

At one of the last tournaments I called, the instructions were that players with bats that didn't "pass" should bring them back to their cars. On Friday, I tossed one bat that was cracked. On Sunday, guess what I saw. Same bat.

Players will keep trying over and over to get their beloved bats into the game, even after we tell them "no." You want us to keep out the bats that shouldn't be there? Then let us do our jobs.

I would love to see how this would play out if law enforcement were involved. You have every right to not allow the bat to be used and every right to not allow the player to participate but to take someones property against there wishes is stealing. Period.

You know what? Go right ahead. Call 911. I'll bring the popcorn.

Who said anything about Miranda rights? That has to do with being arrested. Again, removing and taking possesion of against the owners wishes are completely different things.

I did. You're trying to make a legal case out of this, putting the umpire in the role of law enforcement.

We're not law enforcement. We're umpires.

I am not stomping or pouting. I am typing on a keyboard and posting on an internet forum but any individual or association that believes that they are above the constitution is on a serious power trip. Rights are rights, period. Once again, checking and taking are definitely not the same thing. One more thing to add. Unless that roster sheet that each player signs specifically states that agree to the siezure of bats on the premises and not just those actually used in games, there is ZERO arguement about having the right to take that bat.

Welcome to the Real World. Maybe I should tell Sonic to turn off the censor because he's abridging my 1st Amendment rights.

You'll get your bat (that you should not have brought) back at the end of the tourney. Thanks for playing.

Here is my point. Leagues and associations can set the rules in order for a player to be allowed to compete and umpires can enforce those rules. They do not however have any right to violate a person's right or take their property against their wishes. They can however not allow the player to participate. Either way, problem solved.

If only it were that simple. Players will ALWAYS try to skirt the rules. They will ALWAYS try to get their bats into a game, despite knowing that the bat is no good.

Don't get me wrong. I would LOVE to see every shaved bat out there destroyed and rules are rules and if you want to play you have to abide by them unless you own your own field and host your own game.

Finally, we agree on something.

 

[Joker]

Not really. Rights are just that, period.

no you're wrong

 

[irishmafia]

How amusing. The board is "Ask the Umpire".

The issue was raised and answered with the appropriate rule and code citations, yet the "ludicrous discussion" continues.

And people wonder why the FP and BB people think slowpitch players are a bunch of fat, dunken *******s. Can't figure out where that came from

You folks can try to justify your stupidity all you want, that dog don't hunt, PERIOD.

 

[oppo]

Hello, McFly, anybody home?

Do you really need everything spelled out in rules? Maybe how to walk? Maybe how to swing your bat?
If we aren't going to go by the rules then why have them?

Not everything needs to be spelled out in rules. You already know what bats are and aren't allowed, so why bring 'em? Leave them where they belong: elsewhere. If you bring them to a tournament and they are not allowed, the sanctioning body has the right to confiscate it for the time being. Why? It's a preventative measure.
If there is no "rule" against having the bat in the dugout, then any umpire who tries to remove it is overstepping his authority. If there is such a rule, then that is a different situation all together.

At one of the last tournaments I called, the instructions were that players with bats that didn't "pass" should bring them back to their cars. On Friday, I tossed one bat that was cracked. On Sunday, guess what I saw. Same bat.
That is not suprising at all.

Players will keep trying over and over to get their beloved bats into the game, even after we tell them "no." You want us to keep out the bats that shouldn't be there? Then let us do our jobs.
As I said earlier, your job is to make sure the rules are followed. That does not include making your own rules even if they make sense and would benefit the game. I am all for holding cheaters accountable but if we don't follow the rules then on some level we are doing the same thing they are. If we need new rules to help you guys keep illegal bats out of the game then lets do it right and get them put in place not have individuals make them up as they go.


You know what? Go right ahead. Call 911. I'll bring the popcorn.
Don't forget the butter and salt.



I did. You're trying to make a legal case out of this, putting the umpire in the role of law enforcement.

We're not law enforcement. We're umpires.
That is my point exactly. You are not law enforcement, you are umpires. That certainly doesn't put you above the law and it doesn't give you any authority outside of the game.


Welcome to the Real World. Maybe I should tell Sonic to turn off the censor because he's abridging my 1st Amendment rights.
He is not limiting your right to say what you want. He is simply refusing to host it on this forum. If you take a bat and keep it you are preventing the owner from possessing it at all not just at the game.

You'll get your bat (that you should not have brought) back at the end of the tourney. Thanks for playing.
Now we are on the same page. Keeping the bat as a condition to play and siezing possession of the bat when the owner demands his property are, as I said before, two completely different things. One is perfectly acceptible as long is it is in the rules while the other is theft.

Here is my point. Leagues and associations can set the rules in order for a player to be allowed to compete and umpires can enforce those rules. They do not however have any right to violate a person's right or take their property against their wishes. They can however not allow the player to participate. Either way, problem solved.

If only it were that simple. Players will ALWAYS try to skirt the rules. They will ALWAYS try to get their bats into a game, despite knowing that the bat is no good.
It is that simple, or rather the concept is. You won't catch every cheater and no reasonable person would expect you to just as no reasonable person would expect you to get every call right during the game. Some people will try to cheat. Some of those will get caught and some will not. All anyone can ask is that you apply the rules as fairly and as consistently as you can. If the league or association wants to have a rule that any player caught with an illegal bat gets banned for whatever length of time they choose, I have no problem with that. All I have a problem with is making the rules up as you go.


Finally, we agree on something.
It is not the first thing.

..........

 

[oppo]

no you're wrong

I am wrong plenty of times but rights are rights, period.

 

[oppo]

How amusing. The board is "Ask the Umpire".

The issue was raised and answered with the appropriate rule and code citations, yet the "ludicrous discussion" continues.

And people wonder why the FP and BB people think slowpitch players are a bunch of fat, dunken *******s. Can't figure out where that came from

You folks can try to justify your stupidity all you want, that dog don't hunt, PERIOD.

Personally, I find you amusing. The discussion now has nothing to do with the original question anyways.

 

[irishmafia]

Personally, I find you amusing. The discussion now has nothing to do with the original question anyways.

You are absolutely correct which was my point about the "ludicrous discussion" and stupidity.

Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[MaverickAH]

I can't believe that I'm actually going to post in this thread! It's just that I fell that a couple of things need to be cleared up.

1. Oppo is under the mistaken impression that a softball field is a democracy. It is not! It is no different than someone entering your house! You want them to take their shoes off? Not smoke? Well, they can't tell you it's their right to enter your property anyway they want & do what they want! Your rights end when you enter the ballpark.
2. An umpire's first responsiblity is SAFETY first & foremost!!! The field (which includes the dugouts!) & game is his house! He should not let a pitch be thrown or a game continue if he feels there is an unsafe condition/situation. Like it or not, he gets to define what qualifies as such & no one else & he has the latitude to remedy it as he sees fit.
3. You cannot look at a standard rule book & take everything in verbatim. That is why there is an Umpire's Rule Book! It contains rules interpretations & Points of Emphasis that further clarify a lot of rules & situations. Even with that being the case, I've come across many situations not covered that require some common sense application on the fly.

To bottom line it: An umpire has every right to say who or what can be in your dugout & to take any necessary measures he feels is needed to remedy the situation. If he's concerned about a piece of equipment that he has previously disallowed popping back up into the game, he can have it completely removed from the ballpark. If your league has it in writing that he can confiscate a bat that's in question? Well, he can & that's what you signed up for the minute you agreed to play in that league!

 

[MrEye]

Nope, and it doesn't give you an advantage, either. But there are many other things that could be in your pocket that can.

My chapstick?

 

[MrEye]

This got into a Constitutional discussion? Amazing.

 

[NCASAUmp]

This got into a Constitutional discussion? Amazing.

No kidding...

I've made my position clear here. Like it. Don't like it. That's not my problem.

We're talking in circles.

 

[Joker]

i'm calling my lawyer

 

[johnsonrod]

I'm not even going to touch this whole "league question." Why? Because there are too many variables here. Every league in the US has its own set of expectations both of the players and of the umpires. I simply can't account for that.



Softball tourneys are not comprised of just rules, there's also the aforementioned ASA Code. There are also Tournament Directors and UICs who have different expectations that will work for that particular tournament.

Mountains out of molehills, gentlemen.

its a simple question that you are dodging, and this isnt the first time.

let me make this real simple, its a local ASA league that only uses the ASA rule book, no other local rules apply.

what would give an umpire the right to go into someones bag and take a bat from it? for example, if there is a rule saying so, then that is what would give them the right.

 

[johnsonrod]

How amusing. The board is "Ask the Umpire".

The issue was raised and answered with the appropriate rule and code citations, yet the "ludicrous discussion" continues.

And people wonder why the FP and BB people think slowpitch players are a bunch of fat, dunken *******s. Can't figure out where that came from

You folks can try to justify your stupidity all you want, that dog don't hunt, PERIOD.

can you please be as so kind to show me where there was a rule and code citation that allows an umpire to take a bat from a player?

that would go a LONG way to stopping this discussion.

 

[Joker]

i'm just curious, do you people think the umps are taking the bat and putting it in their trunk and taking it home with them?

 

[oppo]

I can't believe that I'm actually going to post in this thread! It's just that I fell that a couple of things need to be cleared up.

1. Oppo is under the mistaken impression that a softball field is a democracy. It is not! It is no different than someone entering your house! You want them to take their shoes off? Not smoke? Well, they can't tell you it's their right to enter your property anyway they want & do what they want! Your rights end when you enter the ballpark.
   Now you are trying to put words in my mouth. If you think that is what I said, then you need to learn to read. For the record, your rights do not end at the ballpark. I never said that having a non-approved bat at the ballfield was a right, but owning it is. A person does have the right to "take his ball and go home."
2. An umpire's first responsiblity is SAFETY first & foremost!!! The field (which includes the dugouts!) & game is his house! He should not let a pitch be thrown or a game continue if he feels there is an unsafe condition/situation. Like it or not, he gets to define what qualifies as such & no one else & he has the latitude to remedy it as he sees fit.
   No, it is the association's house and their rules. The umpire is a paid employee there to enforce their rules.
3. You cannot look at a standard rule book & take everything in verbatim. That is why there is an Umpire's Rule Book! It contains rules interpretations & Points of Emphasis that further clarify a lot of rules & situations. Even with that being the case, I've come across many situations not covered that require some common sense application on the fly.
   There is a difference between interpreting rules and making them up.

To bottom line it: An umpire has every right to say who or what can be in your dugout & to take any necessary measures he feels is needed to remedy the situation. If he's concerned about a piece of equipment that he has previously disallowed popping back up into the game, he can have it completely removed from the ballpark. I never said he couldn't. If your league has it in writing that he can confiscate a bat that's in question? Well, he can & that's what you signed up for the minute you agreed to play in that league! IF they have it in writing and right up until the point when you revoke that consent.

..........

 

[oppo]

i'm just curious, do you people think the umps are taking the bat and putting it in their trunk and taking it home with them?

If it is not returned to the owner, then it really doesn't matter if they take it home, throw it in the trash, or give to the kid down the street. Like I have already said several times, holding a bat as a condition to compete and taking the bat and refusing to return it to the owner are completely different things. If the rules state that the bat must be handed over and the player does not want to do this then he does have the right to keep his property but as soon as does, he forfits his priveledge to participate. Participation is a priveledge, not a right.

 

[Joker]

If it is not returned to the owner, then it really doesn't matter if they take it home, throw it in the trash, or give to the kid down the street. Like I have already said several times, holding a bat as a condition to compete and taking the bat and refusing to return it to the owner are completely different things. If the rules state that the bat must be handed over and the player does not want to do this then he does have the right to keep his property but as soon as does, he forfits his priveledge to participate. Participation is a priveledge, not a right.

so whats your ****ing problem then?

 

[oppo]

To bring up an example used earlier...

If you come into my house and refuse to take your shoes off, I can make you leave but I can't take your shoes.

 

[Joker]

To bring up an example used earlier...

If you come into my house and refuse to take your shoes off, I can make you leave but I can't take your shoes.

very bad analogy. do you have rules posted that certain shoes are illegal in your house?

 

[oppo]

so whats your ****ing problem then?

I don't have a problem. Nobody has reached into my bag or tried to keep anything that is in it. My MV-1 sits in my bag quite often at ASA league games and there is nothing in the local rules against that.

 

[oppo]

very bad analogy. do you have rules posted that certain shoes are illegal in your house?

That still wouldn't give me the right to take them, only to have them removed.

 

[Joker]

I don't have a problem. Nobody has reached into my bag or tried to keep anything that is in it. My MV-1 sits in my bag quite often at ASA league games and there is nothing in the local rules against that.

ok so why all this bull**** you're posting?

That still wouldn't give me the right to take them, only to have them removed.

no but you're missing the point that its a horrible analogy

 

[cdamron13]

this may just qualify as the stupidest ****ing arguement of all time.....wow, we are talking about taking shoes off and having rules posted about it....simply ****ing awesome...anything to fight the good fight around here