Dudley Thunder ZN Pro M vs. Thunder SY Pro M

TWmccoy

3DX Connoisseur
Interesting results here. Played a tourny Saturday in 90+ degree temps. We had a brand new dozen ZN Pro Ms.... and they were surprisingly awful performers. The balls just had no zip off the bat, and felt completely dead. Some of the wimpiest balls I've seen in a long time.

Someone scrounged up a synthetic SY Pro M, and it was night and day better than the ZNs. Much harder/crisper feel.

I have no explanation. Usually ZNs are easily better than synthetic balls.

FWIW, I also feel like ZN Pro Ms are worse than Tattoos or Demarini Razzo Pro Ms. They're bad enough that in hot weather I'd just rather use C+s.
 

EAJuggalo

Addicted to Softballfans
Interesting results here. Played a tourny Saturday in 90+ degree temps. We had a brand new dozen ZN Pro Ms.... and they were surprisingly awful performers. The balls just had no zip off the bat, and felt completely dead. Some of the wimpiest balls I've seen in a long time.

Someone scrounged up a synthetic SY Pro M, and it was night and day better than the ZNs. Much harder/crisper feel.

I have no explanation. Usually ZNs are easily better than synthetic balls.

FWIW, I also feel like ZN Pro Ms are worse than Tattoos or Demarini Razzo Pro Ms. They're bad enough that in hot weather I'd just rather use C+s.
I didn't even know Dudley made a Pro M in an SY, I thought they were only available in ZN. The Pro M's this year seem a bit deader than the ones we had last year and much less lively than the ones that first came out in 2018. Was there humidity to go with the temps? I could see that affecting the leather of the ZN more than the synthetic cover of the SY. The batch we had in Minneapolis this weekend had a defect in the seams on a couple boxes worth, quality control issues maybe?
 

TWmccoy

3DX Connoisseur
I didn't even know Dudley made a Pro M in an SY, I thought they were only available in ZN. The Pro M's this year seem a bit deader than the ones we had last year and much less lively than the ones that first came out in 2018. Was there humidity to go with the temps? I could see that affecting the leather of the ZN more than the synthetic cover of the SY. The batch we had in Minneapolis this weekend had a defect in the seams on a couple boxes worth, quality control issues maybe?

I'm not sure what the deal was with these balls, but they had no pop. They felt mushy and dead. Didn't notice any seam defects.

The first Pro Ms I saw (from Viera 2 years ago) were hot in any weather. I remember hitting them in 90+ degree temps and the balls just jumping.
 

jbo911

Super Moderator
Staff member
This is the way I've felt about zns for the last 6 or so years. Classic m pro m doesn't matter. One dozen Will be fire and the next will be dog****.
 

D-ROCK13

Well-Known Member
Had the same issue a few weeks ago with pro m zns but it was so hot and muggy that gold dot extremes would barely leave the infield
 

TWmccoy

3DX Connoisseur
Had the same issue a few weeks ago with pro m zns but it was so hot and muggy that gold dot extremes would barely leave the infield

I haven't tried a Gold Dot Extreme Pro M yet, but I know they exist.

So far this year I'm just not impressed with the Pro M ZNs. They aren't flying well, and don't even have a good feel to them.
 

jbo911

Super Moderator
Staff member
They're allowing them here, because people are still having trouble getting balls, and people won't throw them in over a Classic M at any temperature if that tells you anything.
 

TWmccoy

3DX Connoisseur
I was referring to classic m gold dot extremes, havent seen a pro m other than zns here

I've seen synthetic SYs, Demarini Razzo composites, and Tattoo composite Pro Ms. Of all those, the Tattoos have been the best performers so far. ZN composite Pro Ms are the WORST performing of all those.
 

EAJuggalo

Addicted to Softballfans
About as bad as a .40 - 325 :(
The first ones weren't. There was a huge difference in 2019 between the Classic M and the Pro M. The difference now is noticeably less. The whole point of the Pro M was to have a ball that was less temperature dependent, at least that is what we all were told then. At least then it was true. They were flying as well with a heat index of 110 in Cincy as the Classic M had been at 75 in Chicago the month before.
 

TWmccoy

3DX Connoisseur
The first ones weren't. There was a huge difference in 2019 between the Classic M and the Pro M. The difference now is noticeably less. The whole point of the Pro M was to have a ball that was less temperature dependent, at least that is what we all were told then. At least then it was true. They were flying as well with a heat index of 110 in Cincy as the Classic M had been at 75 in Chicago the month before.

The real test will be in Viera in a couple months. I'll just say, the Pro Ms I've seen in CO so far this summer have seemed lousy. It reminds me of the old days of using classic Ms in the heat. You have to earn HRs.

In hot weather, C+s fly SIGNIFICANTLY better than these newer Pro Ms.
 

EAJuggalo

Addicted to Softballfans
The real test will be in Viera in a couple months. I'll just say, the Pro Ms I've seen in CO so far this summer have seemed lousy. It reminds me of the old days of using classic Ms in the heat. You have to earn HRs.

In hot weather, C+s fly SIGNIFICANTLY better than these newer Pro Ms.
I was in Cincy this weekend, while it wasn't all that hot it was incredibly humid. Most of the guys I talked to thought the ball not flying all that well had more to do with the 240 bats than the ball. Granted we were only playing 5 innings, but I didn't have a single team use all their homeruns, regardless of class. I think Chik Fil A put up 9 in one game but that was it. I know MPT got beat by Chik Fil A at 4 am Sunday still having 6 left. Usually at that time of night they're out by the third inning.
 

jbo911

Super Moderator
Staff member
I was in Cincy this weekend, while it wasn't all that hot it was incredibly humid. Most of the guys I talked to thought the ball not flying all that well had more to do with the 240 bats than the ball. Granted we were only playing 5 innings, but I didn't have a single team use all their homeruns, regardless of class. I think Chik Fil A put up 9 in one game but that was it. I know MPT got beat by Chik Fil A at 4 am Sunday still having 6 left. Usually at that time of night they're out by the third inning.
I would really like you know if dm was in charge of storing them because i swear i think he has a shed on the sun. I remember the first tourney city slam i think it was went from hot dots to zns and we were so hyped. We had to buy them at the park and they were so bad people were asking if we could hit our own hit dots.

They weren't serious of course, but the point still stands. I'm but notsure if he stores them in heat or zns just have trash batches that get through qc.

I didn't come out with ours getting cancelled and all the rain.
 

EAJuggalo

Addicted to Softballfans
I would really like you know if dm was in charge of storing them because i swear i think he has a shed on the sun. I remember the first tourney city slam i think it was went from hot dots to zns and we were so hyped. We had to buy them at the park and they were so bad people were asking if we could hit our own hit dots.

They weren't serious of course, but the point still stands. I'm but notsure if he stores them in heat or zns just have trash batches that get through qc.

I didn't come out with ours getting cancelled and all the rain.
I actually happen to know the answer to this. Leading up to a Major he stores them in a trailer that sits between fields 2 and 3 at MAB. At RCW, usually they are in one of the back rooms off Nikki's office. I opened one full case worth on Friday night that got put into the women's bathroom at RCW when the storms hit. They were there until I took them out at 2:15 for my 2:30 games Saturday.
 

jbo911

Super Moderator
Staff member
I actually happen to know the answer to this. Leading up to a Major he stores them in a trailer that sits between fields 2 and 3 at MAB. At RCW, usually they are in one of the back rooms off Nikki's office. I opened one full case worth on Friday night that got put into the women's bathroom at RCW when the storms hit. They were there until I took them out at 2:15 for my 2:30 games Saturday.
Depending on how long that was, i think we have our answer. People don't realize what heat does to balls. I'm lucky enough to have a coach that keeps our balls in the back of his truck at all times. We don't hit any dbos after June. Lol
 

EAJuggalo

Addicted to Softballfans
Where are you going to store the 20 cases that he had in the trailer? There just isn't enough space to put it anywhere, and it's not like it was 105 this weekend. Humidity was an absolute ***** but the temperature wasn't bad at all.
 

TWmccoy

3DX Connoisseur
I was in Cincy this weekend, while it wasn't all that hot it was incredibly humid. Most of the guys I talked to thought the ball not flying all that well had more to do with the 240 bats than the ball. Granted we were only playing 5 innings, but I didn't have a single team use all their homeruns, regardless of class. I think Chik Fil A put up 9 in one game but that was it. I know MPT got beat by Chik Fil A at 4 am Sunday still having 6 left. Usually at that time of night they're out by the third inning.

We have the major tourny here in Loveland this weekend. Obviously it'll be Pro Ms and 240 bats. I'll come back here next week and discuss my observations. Loveland is a bit of a launch pad, so I think the better teams will easily use all their HRs.

I played a tourny this past weekend (both days) that used Pro Ms. It was supply your own ball, and we seemed to have quite a smattering of ZN Pro Ms. There were HUGE fluctuations in performance between different balls. Some felt hard and flew great. Others were pure mush and had no bounce to them at all.

I think Dudley is having some consistency problems in the manufacture of Pro Ms right now.
 

TWmccoy

3DX Connoisseur
I would really like you know if dm was in charge of storing them because i swear i think he has a shed on the sun. I remember the first tourney city slam i think it was went from hot dots to zns and we were so hyped. We had to buy them at the park and they were so bad people were asking if we could hit our own hit dots.

They weren't serious of course, but the point still stands. I'm but notsure if he stores them in heat or zns just have trash batches that get through qc.

I didn't come out with ours getting cancelled and all the rain.

Any C+ ball will outperform a classic M or Pro M when it gets super hot/humid. This is the first year CO has allowed Pro Ms during the summer. We usually use C+ year round. I'm finding it more difficult to hit HRs with the Pro M when it gets really hot.
 

jbo911

Super Moderator
Staff member
Where are you going to store the 20 cases that he had in the trailer? There just isn't enough space to put it anywhere, and it's not like it was 105 this weekend. Humidity was an absolute ***** but the temperature wasn't bad at all.
Depends on how long they were there. We probably hit 90+ several times over the last month. Either way, just moving then inside the 2 story clubhouse with offices on Thursday or so would make a huge difference.
 

jbo911

Super Moderator
Staff member
Don't get me wrong, i want a less hot ball, but i want it engineered that way. Not just because some were baked in the sun, but then they throw in a good one and its going 15 mph faster or something.

Do you think utrip will take this seriously now that they had the sni thing and a team had to forfeit because all their pitchers got knocked out of the tournament?
 

EAJuggalo

Addicted to Softballfans
I think Dudley is having some consistency problems in the manufacture of Pro Ms right now.
I would certainly agree with this. I think there was a big difference between what we had in Minneapolis and what we had in Cincy. I'm guessing when it went from small batches just for the Conference to being mass produced the QC suffered greatly. I'd be interested in what you experience in Loveland.
 

TWmccoy

3DX Connoisseur
I would certainly agree with this. I think there was a big difference between what we had in Minneapolis and what we had in Cincy. I'm guessing when it went from small batches just for the Conference to being mass produced the QC suffered greatly. I'd be interested in what you experience in Loveland.


Yeah, I'll post back next week and let you know. I'll also grab a few balls from Loveland and see if there's any difference in BP between them and other batches of Pro Ms.

I also agree that since the balls are being mass produced now that QC has slipped.
 

EAJuggalo

Addicted to Softballfans
Yeah, I'll post back next week and let you know. I'll also grab a few balls from Loveland and see if there's any difference in BP between them and other batches of Pro Ms.

I also agree that since the balls are being mass produced now that QC has slipped.
Make sure you get permission from someone. Penalty for taking balls from a Conference event is a one year suspension.
 

TWmccoy

3DX Connoisseur
Make sure you get permission from someone. Penalty for taking balls from a Conference event is a one year suspension.

Meh. The Park in Loveland has 10 fields, many of which are surrounded by thick weeds, lakes, and rivers. I'm playing coed there Sunday, too. Finding balls won't be a problem.

Also, no one seems to care about the balls that go in the lakes in Viera, either. Every time I'm there I see like 50 balls floating on the shore. The wind blows them across the lake, and they just sit there.
 

TWmccoy

3DX Connoisseur
OK, I have much to discuss after playing in the Rocky Mountain Classic tourny in Loveland this past weekend. Bats and balls.

The fields are 310' all around, but seem to play shallower most of the time. Usually this place is a launching pad, and HRs come with extreme ease. This past weekend was a different story. We started at 5 PM Friday, and it was mid 90s and humid out. No wind. Everything was simply stagnant. To say that the Pro M felt dead/mushy was an understatement. In all the tournies I've ever played in Loveland I don't think I've ever hit such mushy, lifeless balls. These things weren't going ANYWHERE. A lot of the local teams struggled badly hitting. Tons and tons of flyouts well short of the fence. I play on a good C team, and we went 1-2. Our hitting was nonexistent, and we hit 7 HR total in 3 games. That is absolutely appalling. I had 1 HR in each game, and I felt like I had to earn them.

As bad as the balls were, I think the bats played a factor here as well. My team (and most other CO teams) aren't really used to 240 bats. The 240 bats are noticeably deader than 220s. Guys who are used to hitting bombs and gaps could do neither. All their hits would seem to fly in slow motion and die in an OF's glove. Honestly, the way the ball was flying reminded me of Viera. There were plenty of very low scoring games played. Things improved somewhat late in the evening, but it was just brutal playing in the middle of the day. I used 2 Junos, an MR1 that tests at 275, and an MR2 that tests at 265. Both seemed to hit about the same. Neither is remarkably hot, but will still send a ball adequately if the sweetspot is found with some spin.

Now, back to the Pro Ms. All the balls I saw used in this tourny were from the same batch/lot (BN). They were not what I'd consider good Pro Ms. The covers weren't super tight, and the cores seemed to be mushy even when the balls were brand new. Hitting these balls was a chore. There wasn't much feel, and velocity off the bat was lacking. I'd go as far as to call these balls "pillowy". Distance was terrible, and they wouldn't penetrate. We had a very slight breeze blowing in as we played all 3 games, and the Pro M would just seem to parachute down after dying limply in the OF. The last time the Rocky Mountain Classic was played in Loveland we used ZN classic Ms and they were light years better than this current iteration of Pro Ms.

Many of the veteran conference teams out there did fine. They were still hitting plenty of HRs.

Conclusions: Between the 240 bats and the dead Pro Ms, hitting a HR in USSSA has suddenly gotten harder. Unlike some of the earlier batches of Pro Ms, these latest ones seem to be badly affected by heat. HRs can still be hit, but you have to mean it. No accidental ones.

If they use this same batch of Pro Ms in Viera for worlds I think there will be some comically low scoring games. Especially B and above, where 240 bats are required.

ULTIMATE CONCLUSION: There are HUMUNGOUS differences in ZN Pro Ms. I've seen very, very good ones, and almost ludicrously bad ones, like this past weekend. Depending on which batch ball you get, you could be easily dropping bombs or struggling to reach the warning track.
 
Last edited:

EAJuggalo

Addicted to Softballfans
After doing some checking. BN were what we had in Minneapolis. KR is what was in Viera for Worlds last year and KH was what was in Cincinnati last year. I can certainly agree that what we had in Minneapolis was quite a bit different than what we had in Viera and Cincy last year.
 

TWmccoy

3DX Connoisseur
After doing some checking. BN were what we had in Minneapolis. KR is what was in Viera for Worlds last year and KH was what was in Cincinnati last year. I can certainly agree that what we had in Minneapolis was quite a bit different than what we had in Viera and Cincy last year.

KH were the first Pro Ms I saw in Viera in 2019. Very good balls. They feel like rocks here in CO, and perform well in FL.

The BN ones we have now don't even feel like the same ball. They're much softer/deader.
 
Top