runners on 1st and 2nd batter hits a deep pop up over SS who runs back and attempts to make the catch, umpire calls out IF batter is out, the SS wasn't able to make the catch, and it was certainly not a play that could be made with ordinary effort, in fact if the SS caught the ball it would have been a GREAT play, the offense was yelling that IF should never have been called, and asked the umpire to award the batter 1st base because of the incorrect call and advance the runners 1 base, I know there is a rule about umpires being able to award bases on incorrect calls, would this apply to an errant IF call?
ASA errant Infield Fly call
- Thread starter jonsey
- Start date
MarlSrSoftball
Into Semi-Retirement Still activebut not League
IMO it is an umpires judgement call good bad or indifferent. Tough luck, it is not the first bad call and it won't be the last.
Having said that if it was a non-serious rec game then if the ump wants to change the call what you said would be right.
Having said that if it was a non-serious rec game then if the ump wants to change the call what you said would be right.
NCASAUmp
Un-Retired
You can absolutely unring that bell. This is actually one of the easiest bells to unring.
If it's clear that the infield fly shouldn't have been called, and IF the ball was never caught, then you take back the out (since the defense never should have been given the out), you place the batter-runner on first, and you advance the runners who weren't forced to run.
This happens a lot in single-umpire games. It's hard for the Plate Umpire to determine how far out the ball's hit, as we're pretty much straight-lined to the path of the ball. When you have a Base Umpire, it becomes a lot easier for the crew to make the call.
If it's clear that the infield fly shouldn't have been called, and IF the ball was never caught, then you take back the out (since the defense never should have been given the out), you place the batter-runner on first, and you advance the runners who weren't forced to run.
This happens a lot in single-umpire games. It's hard for the Plate Umpire to determine how far out the ball's hit, as we're pretty much straight-lined to the path of the ball. When you have a Base Umpire, it becomes a lot easier for the crew to make the call.
irishmafia
Addicted to Softballfans
Disagree. You advance those who were forced by the batter becoming the batter-runner
This should never be reversed. It isn't a call that should be guessed. You correct an erroneously called IF when the conditions did not meet the requirements for an IF to be in effect or was in effect, but not called
NCASAUmp
Un-Retired
I misspoke about advancing the runners. I meant to say advance the forced runners.
I disagree about the reversal, though. This is absolutely correctable. You can’t reward the defense for an out they couldn’t have gotten.
A few years ago 3 or 4 of my teammates and I were subbing on a team coached by another of our teammates. The umpire was familiar with our regular team and knew what we were capable of. Batter hit a popup maybe 15-20 ft behind the 2nd baseman. Ump immediately called infield fly, batter's out. Any one of my teammates or I would have easily caught it and the ump knew it, but the 2nd baseman wasn't one of us and barely moved. As the ball fell safely in the grass with no one near it, the ump quickly reversed his earlier call and called off the IF. In this case it didn't cause any problems because we had no play anywhere, but I don't know how you reverse the IF call after the play is over, especially if a defender is right there when the ball hits the ground.
I cant find the rule but I know it allows an umpire who makes an incorrect call to correct it and place the runners where in his judgement they would have been, irish, why wouldn't the umpire be able to correct his errant call when the rule states that the play should be made with ordinary effort
This happens when an umpire jumps to quick to yell this out. I just recently seen this happen on my team and a fellow umpire. The grass has nothing to do with this at all as every field is different. You do need to be prepared to make the call fairly soon if runners are on bases as not to cause any other collateral damage. But in softball I can’t remember not having good judgement on this. And the call should be yelled out....infield fly batters out if fair. And 15 to 20 feet isn’t that far with a brisk walk. Just a bad call was made, but you can’t put the sh!t back in the horse.
Joker, I agree with you, but in O/P I explained that this play was not ordinary effort and that it would have been a GREAT play if the SS had made the catch, and I found the rule # 10.3 C in fact I found it in 1 of Irishes posts on fixing a fair batted ball that was mistakenly called foul. if you can fix that mistake then why not an errant IF call I thought the umpires were suppose to do everything possible to get the cal right
irishmafia
Addicted to Softballfans
Speaking USA Softball, 10.3.C just permits the PU to rectify any situation where a reversal or delay of a call places a team in jeopardy. This applies to a misapplication of the rules, not a judgment call.
Because an umpire is never to declare an out until s/he sees an out. An umpire isn't supposed to declare an IF until it is determined that it is. Some things to remember:
- The rule states that the defense could field the ball with ordinary effort. Nowhere is the defender required to actually make an effort.
- The umpire cannot control the weather. If a ball goes up and the defense reacts in an ordinary manner and the IF is called and a sudden gust of wind pushes the ball toward the OF, it is still an IF
- When called, it indicates to both teams what their options are
This was not a bad call
Infield Fly
every call that an umpire makes is in someway a judgement call ....whether it's right or wrong it's his judgement
IRISH,
exactly, in this case the umpire misapplied the rule because it was not ordinary effort...in my OP I stated that it would have been a great catch I guess I should have said SUPER EFFORT
different wording on same question, if after the play was complete the umpire was asked "by the offense are you sure that was ordinary effort, and he then the umpire realized he made the call to early can he fix it? or does he just say he cant change it once it's been called
so are you saying that if the batter hits a pop up in the IF and no fielder even makes an effort to catch it you would called IFF??
thx for your time on this
exactly, in this case the umpire misapplied the rule because it was not ordinary effort...in my OP I stated that it would have been a great catch I guess I should have said SUPER EFFORT
different wording on same question, if after the play was complete the umpire was asked "by the offense are you sure that was ordinary effort, and he then the umpire realized he made the call to early can he fix it? or does he just say he cant change it once it's been called
so are you saying that if the batter hits a pop up in the IF and no fielder even makes an effort to catch it you would called IFF??
thx for your time on this
Joker
Well-Known Member
irishmafia
Addicted to Softballfans
irishmafia
Addicted to Softballfans
No, that would be wrong.
The rule can be applied after the fact if in effect
That's correct
Joker
Well-Known Member
Either it's fair or foul. It's not a judgement callFair or foul is quite often a judgment call, so stop saying that
RDD15
Addicted to Softballfans
I think you have missed on this one, Joker. Out/safe, ball/strike, and fair/foul are judgement calls. An ump makes a judgement on fair/foul on every single legally batted ball that is not caught before it hits the ground.
If fair/foul was not a judgement call, then it would be protestable. Can you protest a fair/foul call? Nope.
I ump high school baseball and at one of our preseason meetings a new ump asked about "tie goes to the runner" and the head ump running the meeting replied with "There is never a tie, the runner is either safe or out. It your job as an ump to make that call." What Joker is saying is the ball is either fair or foul (the rule book clearly defines what is fair and foul and no judgement is needed to determine that) and the ump either makes the correct call based on what he saw or he does not. Having to make a call does not automatically make it a judgment call when the correct way to call a play is clearly defined in the rule book.
irishmafia
Addicted to Softballfans
The definitions of fair and foul are a given. The judgment is of which standard the batted ball met. With a play at a base, either the ball is caught before the runner reaches the base, the ball is caught after the runner reaches the base or both occur at the same time.
Obviously, the call must be safe or out, but that doesn't mean the 3rd option wasn't present at that time. This is why the rule books are specific to only one option being applied as an out.
RDD15
Addicted to Softballfans
This would be a misapplication of the rules, so yeah you can protest that ruling. But I think that you know what I mean. In your example, you are not protesting whether the umpire judged the ball in fair territory, you are protesting how he mis-applied the rules by saying that because the fielder was in fair territory when they touched the ball, that the ball is also fair. You cant protest blue's judgement of where the ball is located, but you can protest their misunderstanding of the fielder's position determining fair/foul rather than the ball.
RDD15
Addicted to Softballfans
Um, I think that you are not getting the definition of "judgement call". The rules do indeed clearly define what fair and foul balls are. The umpire must then make judgement as to whether a batted ball is indeed fair, or foul, according to those rules. I think I understand what Joker is trying to say, and I think I understand what you are trying to say. Are you trying to say that a judgement call is how an umpire interprets and applies the rules to a call? Because that is pretty much exactly what a judgement call is NOT.
What I am saying is that in the case of an infield fly, every ump has to use their own "judgment" on what they consider ordinary effort. Even if you disagree with ump on what ordinary effort is it does not mean he got the call wrong according to the rule book, it just means your judgment and his are not the same. In the case of fair/foul or safe/out, the ump either makes the correct call or he does not. Missing the call is not bad judgement, it's just making a bad call.
NCASAUmp
Un-Retired
In thinking on the matter some more, I'm going to stick with my original statement. If an IFF is called that should never have been called, I still believe it can be reversed. For example, if the batter pops up to just behind where the second baseman is usually found, but the team is missing their second baseman, I can see an umpire making the call by mistake, but then rectifying it after.
It's going to have to be a pretty egregious call to rectify it, though. I'd err on the side of sticking with the call if "routine effort" turns into "busting one's butt," but if it's that bad, you can absolutely unring that bell if you are positive it should never have been called.
I'll run this one up the flagpole to be certain. At least then, I'll know how it'll be called in my neck of the woods.
It's going to have to be a pretty egregious call to rectify it, though. I'd err on the side of sticking with the call if "routine effort" turns into "busting one's butt," but if it's that bad, you can absolutely unring that bell if you are positive it should never have been called.
I'll run this one up the flagpole to be certain. At least then, I'll know how it'll be called in my neck of the woods.