ASA Foul ball vs foul tip

Sonic625

An Admin
Staff member
I believe there used to be a rule in ASA for a ball hit to be become a foul ball vs a foul tip was a perceivable arc. However I think the wording was replaced and now there is no height requirement, is that correct? I have scoured the 2020 ASA rulebook and cannot locate this reference.

Situation: Batter has 1-1 count batter makes contact with the ball and softly goes back to the catcher who makes a catch, no perceivable arc is noticed.
Is this a strike or an out?
 

smoke

50AAA USA National Champs
I believe it's an out unless the rules have changed in the past few years
SMOKE
 

hitless45

Addicted to Softballfans
Our leagues still have the no height requirement, since the wording was replaced. Yes tip = foul = out if caught
 

MaverickAH

Well-Known Member
I believe there used to be a rule in ASA for a ball hit to be become a foul ball vs a foul tip was a perceivable arc. However I think the wording was replaced and now there is no height requirement, is that correct? I have scoured the 2020 ASA rulebook and cannot locate this reference.

Situation: Batter has 1-1 count batter makes contact with the ball and softly goes back to the catcher who makes a catch, no perceivable arc is noticed.
Is this a strike or an out?

It's in the Rule 1 Definitions section. I don't know how to interpret your use of the word, "softly", but no perceptible arc would lean toward a call of foul tip. Now USA's definition specifically says, ".....sharply & directly....." There is no specific wording as to "perceptible arc". That is usually just a verbal guideline given at clinics to help umpires make a determination.
 

EAJuggalo

Addicted to Softballfans
What was taught to me was if the catcher moved their glove to catch it, it was an out and not a foul tip. This will be my 10 season of umpiring slow pitch and I've seen 2 foul tips.
 

BretMan

Addicted to Softballfans
There never has been any height requirement for how high a batted ball had to go to be caught for an out. That rule has never been changed.
 
Rulebook Amendments • SSUSA 2018 National Rules Committee Sessions
§1.28 • FOUL BALL A foul ball is a legally batted ball that:
F. Goes directly from the bat, not higher than the batter's head to any part of the catcher's body or equipment other than the hand(s) or glove.

§1.29 • FOUL TIP A foul tip is batted ball that goes directly from the bat, not higher than the batter's head, to the catcher's hand(s) or glove and is legally caught by the catcher. NOTE: Any batted ball that goes directly from the bat, not higher than the batter's head to any part of the catcher's body or equipment other than the hand(s) or glove is a foul ball and a dead ball. EFFECT: The ball is dead on all foul tips and the batter is out if it is the third final strike.

The ruling above was cut and pasted directly from the 2018 SSUSA amendments to their rule book. As to the discussion in a couple of the posts above, the rule used in ASA for many years was, and i am not quoting exact wording but words to the effect, "a legally batted ball that is tipped and is higher than the batter's head if caught is an out, regardless of strike count" Below is the ASA definition for Foul Tip: A batted ball that goes directly from the bat, not higher than the batter's head, to the catchers hand(s) or glove and is legally caught by the catcher.

The only ASA Rule book that i have is from 2005, not sure if the "higher than the batters head, etc" has been amended but per the definition above it clearly intends for a foul tip straight back to the catcher is simply a strike unless on a third strike, which a fouled third strike is an out. This could be different if there have been further amendments since 2005, of which i am not sure.

Following is the definition of a foul tip from USSSA 2020 Rule Book - FOUL TIP is a batted ball that goes directly from the bat not higher than the batter’s head, to the catcher’s hands and is legally caught. First contact from bat must be the catcher’s hands.

i couldn't find any further reference to foul "tip or fly" caught by catcher so i assume if the height of the foul is above the batter's head and caught by the catcher then it is an out. Others may know more about USSSA than what i have read.
 

Sonic625

An Admin
Staff member
[GALLERY=media, 34741]IMG_1933 by Sonic625 posted Apr 4, 2021 at 10:39 PM[/GALLERY]
Here is the foul tip rule from the 2020 USA softball rulebook, the end of the foul ball rule is above it.

The rulebook is available on the iOS app store
 

DeputyUICHousto

Addicted to Softballfans
In order for it to be a foul tip the ball must go sharply and directly from the bat to the catcher's glove or hand...if it does not meet these two requirements then it is a caught foul fly ball and an out. All other rules regarding a caught fly ball apply i.e. runners tagging up etc.
 

BretMan

Addicted to Softballfans
Rulebook Amendments • SSUSA 2018 National Rules Committee Sessions
§1.28 • FOUL BALL A foul ball is a legally batted ball that:
F. Goes directly from the bat, not higher than the batter's head to any part of the catcher's body or equipment other than the hand(s) or glove.

§1.29 • FOUL TIP A foul tip is batted ball that goes directly from the bat, not higher than the batter's head, to the catcher's hand(s) or glove and is legally caught by the catcher. NOTE: Any batted ball that goes directly from the bat, not higher than the batter's head to any part of the catcher's body or equipment other than the hand(s) or glove is a foul ball and a dead ball. EFFECT: The ball is dead on all foul tips and the batter is out if it is the third final strike.

The ruling above was cut and pasted directly from the 2018 SSUSA amendments to their rule book. As to the discussion in a couple of the posts above, the rule used in ASA for many years was, and i am not quoting exact wording but words to the effect, "a legally batted ball that is tipped and is higher than the batter's head if caught is an out, regardless of strike count" Below is the ASA definition for Foul Tip: A batted ball that goes directly from the bat, not higher than the batter's head, to the catchers hand(s) or glove and is legally caught by the catcher.

The only ASA Rule book that i have is from 2005, not sure if the "higher than the batters head, etc" has been amended but per the definition above it clearly intends for a foul tip straight back to the catcher is simply a strike unless on a third strike, which a fouled third strike is an out. This could be different if there have been further amendments since 2005, of which i am not sure.

Following is the definition of a foul tip from USSSA 2020 Rule Book - FOUL TIP is a batted ball that goes directly from the bat not higher than the batter’s head, to the catcher’s hands and is legally caught. First contact from bat must be the catcher’s hands.

i couldn't find any further reference to foul "tip or fly" caught by catcher so i assume if the height of the foul is above the batter's head and caught by the catcher then it is an out. Others may know more about USSSA than what i have read.

Since this was an ASA question, my answer applies to ASA rules.

(Which, by the way, bugs me. ASA doesn’t exist anymore and hasn’t for almost five years. They rebranded to USA Softball).

I’m not sure what SSUSA is, but it’s not ASA. And USSSA sure isn’t either.

But even with the USSSA rule, you’re making the same mistake that people always made, the same mistake that is the reason why (then) ASA removed any reference to “the batter’s head” from their foul tip definition.

Their old rule read like the U-Trip rule you posted. It said that a batted ball cannot be ruled a foul tip if it goes higher than the batter’s head.

But that has ZERO, ZILCH, NADA to do with how high a batted ball has to go the be considered a “fly ball” that can be caught for an out. There is no limit, be it the batter’s head or any other part of his body.

The old foul tip definition got twisted around like that for so many years that it generated its own rule myth about catching a pop foul fly ball. To eliminate the confusion, ASA removed any reference to “head height” from their rules. Other organizations did the same, but some did not. This was (if I recall correctly) in 2008...so it’s be awhile.

Yes, there will still be a few sanctioning bodies with a “head height” reference in their FOUL TIP rule (not FOUL FLY BALL rule). And, yes, people will still see that and think that it means a pop fly over foul ground had to go a certain height before it can be caught for an out. The rule never said that in the first place and if you think it did, then you just don’t understand the rule.
 
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EAJuggalo

Addicted to Softballfans
Following is the definition of a foul tip from USSSA 2020 Rule Book - FOUL TIP is a batted ball that goes directly from the bat not higher than the batter’s head, to the catcher’s hands and is legally caught. First contact from bat must be the catcher’s hands.

i couldn't find any further reference to foul "tip or fly" caught by catcher so i assume if the height of the foul is above the batter's head and caught by the catcher then it is an out. Others may know more about USSSA than what i have read.
Like BretMan pointed out, the only thing that the head height comment means is that if the ball meets the bat higher than the batter's head it can not be a foul tip. In USSSA I've been instructed that anytime the catcher moves their hand or there is a perceptible arc on the ball it is not a foul tip.
 
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