Foul or Fair?

jahillia

Addicted to Softballfans
We have a guy that played 3rd for the first time last week. (Only 3rd year playing softball as he has always played baseball) We had a literally almost bunt and the ball rolled into foul territory. Our 3rd basemen grabbed the ball as it rolled into foul territory but his left leg was inside the baseline. Since his leg was in fair territory, the umpire called the ball in play and runner was already on first.

He has been digging into websites and says that in was a foul ball regardless of where he was when he touched it. (From what I can tell, it's a foul ball in baseball) Is it different in softball?
 

eddieq

The Great and Powerful Q
In all "stick and ball" games it is the position of the ball, not the player, that governs foul/fair.
 

jahillia

Addicted to Softballfans
Home plate ump stated 3rd basemen touched it while he was in fair territory and stated the ball was therefore fair. Awarded the guy first base. (he would have been out on a foul ball, no fouls left)
 

longball101

Part Time Player
I always respect the UMPS, they take a lot of un-necessary crap. I always enjoy light bantering with them but I let them know that up front, but...this one is the most basic of rules calls though....no excuses, unless he is brand new to umping
 

NCASAUmp

Un-Retired
I always respect the UMPS, they take a lot of un-necessary crap. I always enjoy light bantering with them but I let them know that up front, but...this one is the most basic of rules calls though....no excuses, unless he is brand new to umping

That’s just it - there is no “rookie uniform” that a new umpire wears. It’s the same as my uniform.

Most umpires take at least 3 years to begin to understand the rules, and even after almost 30 years in this business, I still learn something new every year.

Properly protesting bad rule interpretations is one important way to get these issues fixed.
 

MaverickAH

Well-Known Member
That’s just it - there is no “rookie uniform” that a new umpire wears. It’s the same as my uniform.

Most umpires take at least 3 years to begin to understand the rules, and even after almost 30 years in this business, I still learn something new every year.

Properly protesting bad rule interpretations is one important way to get these issues fixed.

I can't speak for everywhere but my observation is that training & resources for new umpires is sorely lacking compared to where it was 20 years ago. Participation & recruiting are also down. The reasons for this are varied & I won't go into them but I think that it's reaching a critical point where the knowledge & preparation of new umpires is suffering. To me, not knowing fair or foul is not a rookie mistake, it's lack of proper training & instruction.

There was a time where just about every game was done by a 2-man crew. A first year umpire was always paired with a veteran & rarely given plate duties until a certain level of proficiency & confidence was observed. They had someone there on the spot to critique & improve their performance & knowledge. Those days are frequently long gone......

Now, it's mostly single man games & you're on your own. Most organizations will try to relegate rookie umpires to less challenging leagues in the beginning & move them up slowly but that's not always possible.
 

ilyk2win

Addicted to Softballfans
^^ 100% agree with that from what I've seen over my 30 years of playing.....and 3-4 years of umpiring. It's frustrating when I umpire games with other "umpires" who are playing in said game and they frequently say "I didn't even know that was a rule." We get a basic one-day certification class then are expected to study on our own....and I highly doubt many do. We also are probably the highest paid slow pitch umpires in the US.
 

MaverickAH

Well-Known Member
^^ 100% agree with that from what I've seen over my 30 years of playing.....and 3-4 years of umpiring. It's frustrating when I umpire games with other "umpires" who are playing in said game and they frequently say "I didn't even know that was a rule." We get a basic one-day certification class then are expected to study on our own....and I highly doubt many do. We also are probably the highest paid slow pitch umpires in the US.

I'm just east of you & I think that I can beat you on the "highest paid for slow pitch" thing! ;)
 

EAJuggalo

Addicted to Softballfans
I'm just east of you & I think that I can beat you on the "highest paid for slow pitch" thing! ;)
I probably work as one of the lowest paid umpires in slow pitch, but I'm hooked.

When I started in Minneapolis in 2012 it was a six hour training class, three games with the assignor watching you before leagues started and then we'd see how you did at the end of the year. There were quite a few guys that quit after the first year, and a lot more that have quit since then for various reasons. Of the 25 guys I started with that year I only know of 1 that works tournaments a few more that work one or two days a week.
 

EdFred

every day I'm shovelin'
Is the definition of foul ball in USA Softball the exact same as MLB?

MLB

A FOUL BALL is a batted ball that settles on foul territory between home and first base, or between home and third base, or that bounds past first or third base on or over foul territory, or that first falls on foul territory beyond first or third base, or that, while on or over foul territory, touches the person of an umpire or player, or any object foreign to the natural ground.

A foul fly shall be judged according to the relative position of the ball and the foul line, including the foul pole, and not as to whether the infielder is on foul or fair territory at the time he touches the ball.

Ump got the call right, but I need documentation to get my drinks bought for me due to a fair vs foul argument at the bar after the game.

Nevermind: Got someone with a rulebook to send me pics of the rule.
 

Iceman6409

Active Member
Hope that ump looked up the rule after. We all make mistakes, just have to be willing to learn from them, too.

Thank you for saying this. This is exactly how I feel too. Every one in awhile something happens that I am just not sure about and I always tell the player I would be happy to look into it and I always get back to them about it. I find almost all the time I end up being right but there are times I am wrong. And I tell them that and apologize to them. I find that by doing that the players really appreciate my willingness to look things up and get back to them. They learn and so do I. We don't know it all but we do know more than the players
 
Hope that ump looked up the rule after. We all make mistakes, just have to be willing to learn from them, too.
Docent seem like that but as many pointed out doesn't matter where player is it matters where the ball is umpire is clearly wrong

I always respect the UMPS, they take a lot of un-necessary crap. I always enjoy light bantering with them but I let them know that up front, but...this one is the most basic of rules calls though....no excuses, unless he is brand new to umping
I enjoy some of that and i have had some fun poking at myself

i
I can't speak for everywhere but my observation is that training & resources for new umpires is sorely lacking compared to where it was 20 years ago. Participation & recruiting are also down. The reasons for this are varied & I won't go into them but I think that it's reaching a critical point where the knowledge & preparation of new umpires is suffering. To me, not knowing fair or foul is not a rookie mistake, it's lack of proper training & instruction.

There was a time where just about every game was done by a 2-man crew. A first year umpire was always paired with a veteran & rarely given plate duties until a certain level of proficiency & confidence was observed. They had someone there on the spot to critique & improve their performance & knowledge. Those days are frequently long gone......

Now, it's mostly single man games & you're on your own. Most organizations will try to relegate rookie umpires to less challenging leagues in the beginning & move them up slowly but that's not always possible.

Sadly most aren't train and many lack clinics to do
 
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