Getting moved around in the batting order? Discuss

defos

Well-Known Member
My team is a rare exception to this, and I thank God for that. Five of us have been together at least 10 years - my pitcher and I are right at 20 years together. Four more have been with us 5-10. The newest guy has been with us 3 years. No one has left to play for another team. All the past regulars who've left did so for non-softball reasons and haven't played since. We've had good years and bad. We share similar character and values, and that's what keeps us together.

There are a couple of guys I have to put high in the order to keep them happy, but the others really don't care where they hit. With the guys we have, I could pull the lineup out of a hat and it wouldn't matter. I tend to make a lineup based on how they hit - who can move the other guys ahead - and baserunning ability/smarts. At 67, I run well on a good day, but obviously I'm not as fast as I used to be, so I bat last. Our leadoff is often the fastest guy on the field, but he's smart and won't run me over. His brother is almost as fast, but tends to run himself into outs. No way would I bat ahead of him. Speed isn't the same as good baserunning ability.
 

blakcherry329

Well-Known Member
There's a perpetual struggle in softball. It seems that players are constantly moving to a another team. It's difficult to have the same core players (I mean at least 8-10) every year. For many, the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.


One perpetual situation - It seems like a chicken & egg quandary. Does the team hang together as friends and winning is the secondary goal? --or-- Does the team demand wins and people are just pawns to achieve that goal.

Neither choice is inherently wrong - but too many people get involved with a team without realizing their existing goal. Or, the team changes goals from one to the other and 1/2 the team is no longer interested or a right fit. A fun-oriented team finds a bit of success and then 1/2 the team perceives the other half as a liability toward more wins.

I'm sure league ball is most affected, but I think the issue follows some teams into tournament ball as well. And the number of players on the game lineup is affected by this internal struggle as well.

Adult Softball is a strange environment. My wife says it would sell as a soap opera or reality TV show with all the drama I've told her about.

This struggle for team identity is a major issue in many team lineups. Individual egos seek stroking in the right place or the coach tries to favor his long time friend(s) or the coach ignores his friendships and tries to make the best RBI team.

As the Softball Turns....
Definitely more drama today than when we first started playing. Too many people in their feelings nowadays. Plus nobody wants to try to get better. If they don't play, they "take their ball and go home". At this point in my career I have no delusional thoughts of winning our league. We're the oldest team, by a wide margin. We're all on the same page. Play competitive with the youngsters and pull the occasional upset of "better" teams. There's a few people that get butthurt, but we have no problem telling each other to stfu and hit. :)

Ever since Beer League came out, I was thinking that a few of my teams would be must watch train wreck tv. :)
 

Hiltz

Built for comfort
I like it but I disagree. for leadoff, consistent over speed. Speed means nothing if he hits 350 ba.

If someone is hitting .350 in slowpitch he's not on my team so I didn't take that into consideration.

One perpetual situation - It seems like a chicken & egg quandary. Does the team hang together as friends and winning is the secondary goal? --or-- Does the team demand wins and people are just pawns to achieve that goal.

It's rare to find but there's a third scenario; a group of friends who has fun together but are also competitive and good at softball.

If you ever find yourself on that team, hold onto it.
 

rmp0012002

Addicted to Softballfans
I prefer higher in the order because it means more at-bats but in the end it really doesn’t matter because I’ll be productive. It’s just the head scratchers by a manager to put guys 1-3, with 3 being your best RBI guy, that aren’t productive other than being in the coaches ear or a Buddy.
 

swingnmiss

#1 IN YOUR HEARTS
I don't normally get moved around. I'm usually 3, 4 in the order or so, but years ago we went to play a big tourney................. I admittedly, am having a hard time keeping the ball in the park, but I'm like 10 for 12 or something. My only outs being DBO's. The next day I'm told I'm moved down to 10. I'm like, "Huh?" So, coach pulls me off to the side and says, "If we take away your home runs you're only 4-12. That's only about .333......." So, I'm like, "But yeah. If you don't I'm 10 for 12. Look, if you want to play stat games then lets say that everyone who didn't hit a ball out of the park is hitting zero......." He shakes his head and says, "You can't do that. You just can't take away a guys hits to fit your narrative...." :eek: After that I was pissed. Every swing I took was with the intent of hitting the ball out of the park. I hit some huge home runs, solo's and DBO's. That time? Yes, it affected my mindset, approach and performance. I never played with those guys again.
 

jbo911

Super Moderator
Staff member
I volunteer to bat last, but it doesn't bother me to move up. We usually have to have a lot of guys struggling before I will though.

When I ran out team 14 it so years ago, I watched good hitter after good hitter nosedive as they moved down while slumping, with a couple of guys dropping almost 200 points off their average. Plus, all I have to do is get it to the top. And, I'm almost guaranteed a courtesy runner that way too.

Purely statistically I could easily hit higher, but if need listing a few abs raises other guys averages I assume that helps the team more overall.

That league team I mentioned above, some if the guys were struggling to pull out of their slumps so I just made the lineup rolling. If tw was left on deck, he was leadoff next game. We always batted in that same order, just with a different person starting it off. It might've been a fluke, but the whole team hit better once I started it. I went back to normal for the playoffs, but that was mostly me being selfish and but wanting to hear it if it stopped working lol.
 

ImminentDanger

Up and Over
"If we take away your home runs you're only 4-12. That's only about .333....
I give his crazy mental gymnastics a solid '10'... Some people just don't understand the game...???!!!???


I just made the lineup rolling. If tw was left on deck, he was leadoff next game. We always batted in that same order, just with a different person starting it off.

Interesting idea - If the lineup works to create RBIs, then that rolling start idea helps to 'set' the idea that all positions are important and everyone can concentrate on doing their part wherever they are in the lineup. Cool.

%%%
 

Doug

Old and Grumpy
It's easy to judge yourself as the player you once were, not who you are today. We tend to think we're still the player we were 10 years ago, and should be batting in the top 4. Plus, as others have said, there's a lot of politics, favoritism and drama in softball. I don't keep my stats, but I know that I'm gonna bat somewhere between .500 and .750 depending on the level of play. IMO, hitting a slow pitch softball is pretty easy.

The last team I played on that kept accurate stats, I was 5 or 6 years younger than the average player, had a BA just north of .700 with good power. The manager had me batting third or fourth the entire season, with great results. OTOH there have been teams where I was 5 or 6 years older than the average player, and the typical scenario went something like this: the supposedly better #7 batter makes the last out almost every inning he bats; I'm #8 and leading off most of the times I'm up, with nothing but .350 batters behind. That is demoralizing.

I try to always think positive, but when it's 90+ degrees and it's the late innings of a doubleheader and nobody's batted you in all day, yeah. I also try not to second-guess the team's manager, but it's frustrating when one week you go 3 for 5, then 5 for 6, then 4 for 5, but the next game you look at the lineup and WTF you're batting 10th. When that happens, softball becomes more like work than fun.
 

dunkky

Well-Known Member
OTOH there have been teams where I was 5 or 6 years older than the average player, and the typical scenario went something like this: the supposedly better #7 batter makes the last out almost every inning he bats; I'm #8 and leading off most of the times I'm up, with nothing but .350 batters behind. That is demoralizing.
haha.. i can totally related to this. i've seen this a way often than not. if guy is a good hitter with solid mechanic and he struggles more than he should, I totally understand not to shake him up. he will hit soon or later because he is a good hitter no matter what the stat says.

where i have problem is, guy don't have good mechanic and it shows in BA time to time. It's mind blowing when manager place him in top lineup when you have a guy hitting 6-700 batting in 8, 9, or 10th and keep producing. what's even more mind blowing is that grown men doing this when he knows it's clearly wrong. that manager gotta go. for that note, J. Kidd gotta go, he is ruining Mavericks.
 

Hiltz

Built for comfort
"If we take away your home runs you're only 4-12. That's only about .333......."

"If you stopped doing the most productive thing you could possibly do, then you wouldn't be productive." Hmmmmmm....

If tw was left on deck, he was leadoff next game. We always batted in that same order, just with a different person starting it off. It might've been a fluke, but the whole team hit better once I started it.

Our local leagues all play double-headers, we do the same thing. Our #1 batter only gets one more AB than our last batter and everybody stays happy and doesn't complain about favouritism. And I noticed the same thing you did; we all started playing better after we made the switch.

...as others have said, there's a lot of politics, favoritism and drama in softball...

...the typical scenario went something like this: the supposedly better #7 batter makes the last out almost every inning he bats; I'm #8 and leading off most of the times I'm up, with nothing but .350 batters behind. That is demoralizing.

This sounds like the wood bat team I left this year. 3-4-5 batters were all buddies with the guy running the team, they'd hit popups and laugh about it.

I'd bat 7th, go 5-6 or 6-7 and the only way I'd touch second base is if I'd hit a double.
 

ImminentDanger

Up and Over
the typical scenario went something like this: the supposedly better #7 batter makes the last out almost every inning he bats; I'm #8 and leading off most of the times I'm up, with nothing but .350 batters behind. That is demoralizing.
This sounds like the wood bat team I left this year. 3-4-5 batters were all buddies with the guy running the team, they'd hit popups and laugh about it. I'd bat 7th, go 5-6 or 6-7 and the only way I'd touch second base is if I'd hit a double.

Being in the middle with unproductive batters ahead of & after you, it might be a good strategy to ASK THE COACH TO PUT YOU LAST... At least then you would be leading off into the top of the lineup, perhaps giving you a chance to score.

there have been teams where I was 5 or 6 years older than the average player

On ALL the teams I've played with the past 10 years I'm old enough to be the father of 70% of the players & the grandfather of the other 30%. :)

%%%
 

jbo911

Super Moderator
Staff member
Being in the middle with unproductive batters ahead of & after you, it might be a good strategy to ASK THE COACH TO PUT YOU LAST... At least then you would be leading off into the top of the lineup, perhaps giving you a chance to score.



On ALL the teams I've played with the past 10 years I'm old enough to be the father of 70% of the players & the grandfather of the other 30%. :)

%%%
This is exactly why I volunteered for last. Being left in base to have to hurry in, great up, and then pitch without catching my breath sucked when I was half way in shape. I'm not even that right now.
 

TWmccoy

3DX Connoisseur
I hate to say it, but batting any more than 11 is just stupidity. You want the guys at the top of your order getting up as much as possible. Having 1 or 2 dead weight guys at the bottom of the order will cripple a team over the course of a tourny.

Ideally you want at least a somewhat decent hitter at 11, so you can turn the order over effectively with 2 outs and get back to the leadoff guy. Most teams I play on bat 11, which gives guys flexibility in terms of defense. Guys can come in and out if need be. There is NEVER a good reason to bat more than 11.
 

TWmccoy

3DX Connoisseur
1. Speedy
2. Consistent
3. Power
4. Decent power + speed
5. Speedy
6. Consistent
7. Power
8. Decent power + speed
9. Hope for the best
10. Hopeless

My tourny team lineup goes something like this... C team.

1- Speedy, some power, average OBP
2- Great power, speed, good OBP, outstanding defender
3- Great power, high OBP
4- Good power, average OBP
5- Below average power, fast, average OBP
6- Great power, average speed, average OBP
7- Slow, OK power, average OBP
8- Good power, slow, below average OBP
9- Fast, below average power, below average OBP
10- Fast, great defender, well below average OBP and power
11- Fast, average OBP and power.

Top of the lineup is usually great. Bottom can be very hit or miss. Most guys on the team know where they'll be in this order. When the bottom half of our lineup struggles we get killed.
 
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blakcherry329

Well-Known Member
I hate to say it, but batting any more than 11 is just stupidity. You want the guys at the top of your order getting up as much as possible. Having 1 or 2 dead weight guys at the bottom of the order will cripple a team over the course of a tourny.

Ideally you want at least a somewhat decent hitter at 11, so you can turn the order over effectively with 2 outs and get back to the leadoff guy. Most teams I play on bat 11, which gives guys flexibility in terms of defense. Guys can come in and out if need be. There is NEVER a good reason to bat more than 11.
Depends on your team. The team I played for, back in the day, was mostly guys I grew up with and we batted 12 consistently. We didn't have any dead weight, per se. Some were better than others, but we all could hit consistently, so we had no problem turning over the the lineup batting 12.
I do understand what you're saying, however. Most teams don't have 12 good players unless it's a tournament team.
 

TWmccoy

3DX Connoisseur
I don't normally get moved around. I'm usually 3, 4 in the order or so, but years ago we went to play a big tourney................. I admittedly, am having a hard time keeping the ball in the park, but I'm like 10 for 12 or something. My only outs being DBO's. The next day I'm told I'm moved down to 10. I'm like, "Huh?" So, coach pulls me off to the side and says, "If we take away your home runs you're only 4-12. That's only about .333......." So, I'm like, "But yeah. If you don't I'm 10 for 12. Look, if you want to play stat games then lets say that everyone who didn't hit a ball out of the park is hitting zero......." He shakes his head and says, "You can't do that. You just can't take away a guys hits to fit your narrative...." :eek: After that I was pissed. Every swing I took was with the intent of hitting the ball out of the park. I hit some huge home runs, solo's and DBO's. That time? Yes, it affected my mindset, approach and performance. I never played with those guys again.

I hate coaches/managers who play stupid mind games like that. Moving you from 4 to 10 is f'ing ridiculous.

10/12 is way better than most people hit over the course of 3 games, HRs or not.

I'd rather see a guy hit a couple DBOs than ground out weakly trying to keep the ball in the park. I see that all the time. Guys cut down their swing too much, and the results are never good.
 

dunkky

Well-Known Member
I hate coaches/managers who play stupid mind games like that. Moving you from 4 to 10 is f'ing ridiculous.

10/12 is way better than most people hit over the course of 3 games, HRs or not.

I'd rather see a guy hit a couple DBOs than ground out weakly trying to keep the ball in the park. I see that all the time. Guys cut down their swing too much, and the results are never good.
That coach gotta go. no idea why people like that doing the coaching job. but then again, how many of those power starving people are there for a good cause.. not that many.. mainly referring to politicians.. lol Coaching is no different, if your objective is something other than winning and have fun, then he's gotta go.
 

swingnmiss

#1 IN YOUR HEARTS
Also, as far as the lineups some of you have put out there with the:
1: Speed
2: Speed
3: Power/speed
4: Power speed/average...........

Look, you need to have your best hitters hitting in the top 5 spots of the lineup no matter their what their best asset is. Speed, power, average......On and on. Your best 5 hit in the top 5 no matter what. You never want a great hitter hitting low because, "he may drive in the guys in front of them if they get on base............" NO!!! They hit in the top 5 no matter what. If you're going to hit a lesser hitter over a better hitter because of a speed/power/average thing, the you're doing it all wrong. Lesser hitters have no business getting more at bats over the course of a league, tourney or season. Don't think too much. Figure out who your 5 best hitters are and hit them in the top 5 in just about any old way, but make sure they get the most at bats.
 

dunkky

Well-Known Member
Also, as far as the lineups some of you have put out there with the:
1: Speed
2: Speed
3: Power/speed
4: Power speed/average...........

Look, you need to have your best hitters hitting in the top 5 spots of the lineup no matter their what their best asset is. Speed, power, average......On and on. Your best 5 hit in the top 5 no matter what. You never want a great hitter hitting low because, "he may drive in the guys in front of them if they get on base............" NO!!! They hit in the top 5 no matter what. If you're going to hit a lesser hitter over a better hitter because of a speed/power/average thing, the you're doing it all wrong. Lesser hitters have no business getting more at bats over the course of a league, tourney or season. Don't think too much. Figure out who your 5 best hitters are and hit them in the top 5 in just about any old way, but make sure they get the most at bats.
yeap.. really that simple, strightforward.. and at any level.. same concept. this is one of those that requires absolutely no analysis, put the most consistent hitters at top. softball is game of momentum. top hitters hit, bottom guys feed off that energy. Result, great synergy effect with good chemistry and no drama. most E and D level, they ain't no harvey nor KP, so whatever power they have is not even that important over a guy who bats 7-800. most of the time softball game is not decided by a run or two. continuous hitting is the key in softball.
 

Sonic625

An Admin
Staff member
Early on I took it personally if I was not in the top 6 of the lineup. Now in the later part of my time playing, I will volunteer to be at the bottom as I find it fun for the teams to think they got past the good players and then hit the hell out of the ball.
 

Bobby Buggs

SBF Site Sponsor
I'm hitting #8 and leading off most of the times I'm up, with nothing but .350 batters behind me. That was my situation and I just took it. It was especially annoying when guys were constantly ahead of me and for the life of me I couldnt remember the last time they delivered runs. Sad to say it was my last season and I hated to go out like that but there were very limited options to play without significant travel.
 

Redsfan

Well-Known Member
I have hit in every spot in the line up. Back in my "glory days" I usually hit 2nd but one year we mixed it up and I hit 10th and had the best year of my life. I was always on base for our lead off hitter and scored a million runs that year or it seemed like it That team was really good and played B. We didn't have any body that hit below .500. So I didn't get bothered hitting wherever.
Move forward 20 years and playing with a bunch of E/Rec players and it bothers me to hit too low in the lineup. Haha. Some of these guys suck. When you play on a bad team it really cuts out some AB's hitting too low.
On another note I have no idea why any team would bat more than 10 or 11 players. Only way we ever hit 11 was when that 11th guy could hit as good as the other 10. We just didn't have a spot in the field for him. We played to win though.
 

ImminentDanger

Up and Over
On another note I have no idea why any team would bat more than 10 or 11 players. Only way we ever hit 11 was when that 11th guy could hit as good as the other 10. We just didn't have a spot in the field for him. We played to win though.
This can be more easily done on a tournament team. All players have committed to be at one place for a whole day (or 2-3 days at most). Though, I've heard horror stories about irresponsible players on those teams who don't show up or are too drunk to be of any use.

However, in leagues, where week after week various players will be missing, it's a bit harder. Those who play on the team to cover for others being missing often expect to play in games where no one is missing. If they are particularly reliable about showing up for all games, it seems unfair to drop their participation just because an unreliable player shows up - even if their BA or OBP is less than that other player.

This situation of having 13-15 players on the roster to cover 11 or 12 batting spots is not uncommon on league teams. I suspect that this is one of the reasons to bat 11 or more - despite the lineup wrangling that ensues.

%%%
 

Bobby Buggs

SBF Site Sponsor
My situation was league and rosters have up to 15 guys, when they all show up they have to be in the batting order. Imagine the log jams when they all showed. Getting 3 at bats in a 9 inning game is always good to keep your flow in the game.
 

Redsfan

Well-Known Member
I understand the reasoning for having more than 10 in the line up. To me, I'd much rather have my best hitters get extra at bats instead of making the 11-15 players feel better. If you are not one of the 10 best hitters on your team I suggest you practice and become one. Haha. It's an old school way of looking at it but it still works.
 

Yoke

Too sweeeeeeeet
Doesn’t really matter to me. Wherever I get put, I’ll do my job to get on base. If you’re 10th and getting on enough, you won’t be there for long.

I used to get into my own head about batting lead off, but that went away when I started running my own team and lead off because nobody else wanted to (and I would’ve just batted 2nd or 3rd anyways).
 
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