Influencing the batter or umpire.

[vanmol]

I posted this in the wrong forum and certainly didn't get the answer I was hoping for.

I am old school and have gotten a lot of flack for calling out a manager and a player during their last two games. First, the manager from the dugout and then the player from the on-deck circle was calling the pitches flat or illegal, or high before the pitch crossed the plate and the Umpire had a chance to make his call.
I have always considered this, for a better word, unsportsmanlike, or at the least, improper. To me, it is ok to jabber to your heart's content before the pitch or you can chirp at will after the pitch, but not before, while the game is in motion.
Haven't had this come up but I also do not approve of the catcher trying to verbally induce the hitter to go after a bad pitch by hollering out swing batter swing. Seems to be bush league at best. Am I being too picky?
In my defense, didn't Houston get hammered and charged with cheating by banging on a trash can to alert the batter what pitch was coming? Kinda the same thing to me.

 

[hitless45]

https://forums.softballfans.com/index.php?threads/need-an-opinion.1464023/#post-19269357

 

[vanmol]

https://forums.softballfans.com/index.php?threads/need-an-opinion.1464023/#post-19269357

Thanks but I am aware of those replies and was hoping to hear more from accredited umpires. I just spoke to 4 take-charge umps at my div #2 rated team league. One could not give an opinion while the other 3 were adamant about it not happening on their watch.
So far it looks like some are ok with it, some are in the middle and some find it objectable. When I am the Ump it is my call and I don't want anyone acting in a way that might influence my judgment.

 

[hitless45]

That is essentially what everyone in your previous thread says including the umpire that commented in the last post of that thread. It is of different opinions/judgement, but as stated there is no rule that says teammates can not talk to other teammates while they are batting.

 

[EAJuggalo]

USSSA, not a problem. I'm not allowed to say any of those things until the pitch is completed.
USA, I'm going to talk to the manager and let them know to knock it off as they're arguing balls and strikes. In USA, I call illegal loud enough for the catcher and batter to hear me as soon as I judge it to be illegal. If I didn't say it before I heard it from the dugout, I'm probably not calling it if it's questionable.

 

[vanmol]

That is essentially what everyone in your previous thread says including the umpire that commented in the last post of that thread. It is of different opinions/judgement, but as stated there is no rule that says teammates can not talk to other teammates while they are batting.

The reason I am still looking for opinions is because what I have heard so far is all over the board, nothing conclusive. I agree with you that teammates can talk to the batter but I still don't think they can call balls and strikes before the Umpire. EAJuggalo makes a very good point, as doing it is a form of arguing balls and strikes.

 

[EAJuggalo]

The reason I am still looking for opinions is because what I have heard so far is all over the board, nothing conclusive. I agree with you that teammates can talk to the batter but I still don't think they can call balls and strikes before the Umpire. EAJuggalo makes a very good point, as doing it is a form of arguing balls and strikes.

What sanction are you playing? If unsanctioned, what do your league or tournament rules say? The correct answer is entirely dependent on that. If I'm not going to call it, then they absolutely have the right to give their teammate advice.

 

[vanmol]

What sanction are you playing? If unsanctioned, what do your league or tournament rules say? The correct answer is entirely dependent on that. If I'm not going to call it, then they absolutely have the right to give their teammate advice.

That would be senior softball ASA rules. Can't find anything in the rules regarding what appears to be labeled Verbal Interference. NOTE: As an ASA umpire I am not required to call flat or illegal pitches verbally but as a courtesy to the batter we always do. I feel that if we are making that call, no other player should be heard. I know, I know, everybody has a different take on this.

 

[EAJuggalo]

It's in the case book, not specified in the rule book. The rule book says "an act... that impedes, hinders or confuses a defender attempting to make a play. Contact is not necessary." It does not preclude interference being verbal, a runner yelling out "I got it, I got it" on a pop up is the most common case. No sane person will argue that isn't interference. As a USA umpire, you won't go to Nationals or grade out very well at any tournament if you don't make that call for the batter to hear and stick the arm out. If you are doing that, then anything coming from the dugout is arguing balls and strikes. If you aren't, then they are giving direction to their teammate. I'm not going to penalize them for that.

ETA: Verbal interference is covered in Rules Supplement 33 in the back of the book.

 

[vanmol]

It's in the case book, not specified in the rule book. The rule book says "an act... that impedes, hinders or confuses a defender attempting to make a play. Contact is not necessary." It does not preclude interference being verbal, a runner yelling out "I got it, I got it" on a pop up is the most common case. No sane person will argue that isn't interference. As a USA umpire, you won't go to Nationals or grade out very well at any tournament if you don't make that call for the batter to hear and stick the arm out. If you are doing that, then anything coming from the dugout is arguing balls and strikes. If you aren't, then they are giving direction to their teammate. I'm not going to penalize them for that.

ETA: Verbal interference is covered in Rules Supplement 33 in the back of the book.

Thanks to all and EA for your responses. As an ASA umpire who does verbally call balls "Flat" or "illegal" loud enough to be heard in the dugout, I maintain that my call should be the only call. Sadly, it is not a written rule so not much can be done without causing a ruckus in my Florida senior softball league.

 

[hitless45]

I think it's pretty sad that it is senior's your dealing with. Not all is lost tho, if you feel that strongly about how you ump, then do so. Let the ld know that you will be calling your games in that manner, as well as both teams/managers prior to each game. Just a suggestion.

 

[hitless45]

I will also add that if you stay consistent with how you call/ump games, anything that is said or done by players should not influence you.

 

[96packers]

Played against a team for years that pissed and moaned from the first pitch. About the 4th or 5th inning they'd start getting the calls.
If it was me I'd make sure they didn't get any calls...

 

[hitless45]

It's pretty much what I'm saying. A good ump will not be influenced, address all the bs prior to the games and stick with what you said. If you don't want to hear any of that stuff and make it clear, start sending them to the parking lot when/if they do start.

 

[vanmol]

I will also add that if you stay consistent with how you call/ump games, anything that is said or done by players should not influence you.

I do not let it influence me but when a pitch is flat or high and you get ready to call it as such, as fast as can, but hear someone holler flat or high, it gives you pause. It is interfering with your thought process, but you try to ignore it and make the right call. It's the same with safe or out calls on the bases when you hear a bunch of bench-sitting wannabe umpires.
When I say it influences me, I don't mean it causes me to change my call, just annoying.

Thanks all.

 

[nike33kjk]

I would find that if the dugout is yelling flat/high and then the umpire makes that same call.. the defensive team is going to think somethings up and start accusing the ump of favoritism. Then it starts getting uglier.

 

[rmp0012002]

If a player or manager tries to get on an umpire then that isnt going to end well for them. If you’re trying to disrespect me then you won’t get calls and pitches in your favor. I learned a long time ago to don’t show disrespect to umps.

 

[MaverickAH]

How I handle such situations:

If I have an ongoing problem with a manager or player overstepping their boundaries when it comes to calls that are my responsibility, I will shut them down.

I learn long ago to not let things like this go on. I will quietly walk over to the offending party and tell them to cut it out. That way I don’t embarrass them and they get the message.

 

[rmp0012002]

The game was made for the players not the umps but the ump has to squash anything from getting out of hand. Going back years the team I was on was into the playoffs and one of our players just kept pushing it towards the ump and he didn’t make a scene or even get vocal but that ended our playoffs.
I’ve also been ready to start a night game and our coach got into it with ump. Without a pitch being thrown the ump walked over to the scorebook, signed it and left. No game.
I have gotten hot over a play and asked for a clarification on a call but not bang heads.