USSSA Interesting Out of Order Scenario

[hookumsnivy]

So here is an excerpt from the USSSA rule book about batting out of order:

EFFECT Sec. 1. A-E. Batting out of order is an appeal play by the defense.
3. If the mistake was not discovered until a pitch is made to the next batter,
the turn at bat of the incorrect batter is then legal. All bases advanced or runs
scored are counted, the next following batter shall be the one whose name fol-
lows that of the incorrect batter who just finished a time at bat. No one is called
out for failure to bat and players missing their turn at bat have lost that turn and do not bat again until reached in the regular batter rotation.

Given this scenario:
#8 batter is due up.
By mistake the #10 batter bats instead of him by and makes an out.
#9 batter enters the batters box.
The pitcher throws a pitch and then they realize it was the wrong batter (nothing you can do about it now).
The AB continues and the #9 batter hits a HR.

Based on the above rule, the defense could then appeal that the #9 batter was in fact batting out of order since the #1 batter should have been batting.

Correct?

I've never seen this happen as a player or ump, just thought it was interesting.

 

[WhiteBrow24]

no, the batter is safe. they have to appeal at that moment. I do believe that the order resumes after #9 hits so I believe #10 would be up again.

 

[hookumsnivy]

no, the batter is safe. they have to appeal at that moment. I do believe that the order resumes after #9 hits so I believe #10 would be up again.

They wouldn't be appealing #10, they would be appealing #9. According to the rule, if a batter bats out of order and it is not discovered prior to the 1st pitch to the following batter the next batter should be the batter following the illegal batter in order.
So if #10 bats instead of #5 and it's not caught, the next batter should be #1 and not #6. #6-#9 would be skipped.

 

[KannonsDad]

They wouldn't be appealing #10, they would be appealing #9. According to the rule, if a batter bats out of order and it is not discovered prior to the 1st pitch to the following batter the next batter should be the batter following the illegal batter in order.
So if #10 bats instead of #5 and it's not caught, the next batter should be #1 and not #6. #6-#9 would be skipped.

This is all sorts of wrong. The only one out of order is the #10 batter.

 

[hookumsnivy]

So if #10 bats instead of #5 and it's not caught, the next batter should be #1 and not #6. #6-#9 would be skipped.

This is all sorts of wrong. The only one out of order is the #10 batter.

First off, changing the font color to yellow is a bad idea. Makes it really difficult to read.
Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but pay attention to this detail in the rule book:

the next following batter shall be the one whose name fol-
lows that of the incorrect batter who just finished a time at bat. No one is called out for failure to bat and players missing their turn at bat have lost that turn and do not bat again until reached in the regular batter rotation.

That indicates what I said above is true.

 

[KannonsDad]

But by your scenario, the #9 hitter was thrown a pitch, therefore, too late to appeal. I guess I see what you're saying, I just don't think your example is a good one.

 

[WhiteBrow24]

They wouldn't be appealing #10, they would be appealing #9. According to the rule, if a batter bats out of order and it is not discovered prior to the 1st pitch to the following batter the next batter should be the batter following the illegal batter in order.
So if #10 bats instead of #5 and it's not caught, the next batter should be #1 and not #6. #6-#9 would be skipped.[/QUOTE]

this is correct.

 

[hookumsnivy]

But by your scenario, the #9 hitter was thrown a pitch, therefore, too late to appeal. I guess I see what you're saying, I just don't think your example is a good one.

It's too late to appeal #10 batting out of order. But after #9 bats, it seems like you should be able to appeal that #9 batted out of order. #1 should have bat next, not #9.

 

[hookumsnivy]

They wouldn't be appealing #10, they would be appealing #9. According to the rule, if a batter bats out of order and it is not discovered prior to the 1st pitch to the following batter the next batter should be the batter following the illegal batter in order.
So if #10 bats instead of #5 and it's not caught, the next batter should be #1 and not #6. #6-#9 would be skipped.[/

this is correct.

If that's correct, then I would think you can appeal #9 batted out of order if he batted after #10 even though #10 batted out of order.

 

[hookumsnivy]

I was at a game today in a league where I don't ump, so I posed a similar question to 2 USSSA umps. They said they would ask the UIC in the region.
This is what I asked them:
If #10 bats for #5 and no appeal is made until after the next pitch (which we all agree is too late), then the #1 batter should be up next, correct?


They initially told me that the #6 batter would be up next, but when I mentioned the rule, they were surprised and said they would check it out. One of the umps said something to the effect of: If that's the case, a smart team could take advantage of that rule. To which I replied...I know, that's why I'm asking

 

[KannonsDad]

So you've gone through all this to find a loop hole and make yourself look smart. I see. Why don't you just dump the crappy hitters on your team and find some good ones and not have to worry about skipping them.

 

[hookumsnivy]

It's just an added bonus of finding something interesting in the rulebook. Besides, if it ever happens in a game, I'll know what to do as an umpire.

 

[BretMan]

Given this scenario:
#8 batter is due up.
By mistake the #10 batter bats instead of him by and makes an out.
#9 batter enters the batters box.
The pitcher throws a pitch and then they realize it was the wrong batter (nothing you can do about it now).
The AB continues and the #9 batter hits a HR.

Based on the above rule, the defense could then appeal that the #9 batter was in fact batting out of order since the #1 batter should have been batting.

Correct?

Correct.

Once the batter follwing the incorrect batter sees a pitch, the incorrect batter's (#10 in your case) at-bat is legitimized. That means the proper batter should be whoever's name follows the improper batter (#1 should be at the plate).

 

[hookumsnivy]

Thank BretMan. Very interesting rule which opens up all sorts of weird scenarios.

Example:
You're playing against a team that has never seen you before.
First time through the lineup your #9 hitter bats instead of your #7 hitter.
They probably won't realize it because they don't know you. You're #10 batter hits and then you're back to the top of the order.
You can effectively skip a few batters the first time through the order.

Seems like a flaw in the rulebook.

 

[BretMan]

More like a flaw in the scorebook...the one the other team should be keeping!

And remember, the rule book requires numbers on jerseys and official line-ups with numbers, names and positions. If you're going "by the book" on all those rules, it makes gaining an advantage by skirting the rules much less likely.

 

[VCBLUE]

it is very simple. Once batter 10 completed his bat the defense could have appealed that he batted out of order. This would have produced two outs. #10 is out on the play and #9 out for the BOO and #1 is up. However, if #1 comes up to bat and 1 pitch is thrown then no BOO and play ball.

If #9 comes up to bat, 1 pitch thrown, and the blue is notified before he hits the ball or walks then the umpire puts #1 in and he assumes the count. However, if he makes it on base and then the blue is notified then #1 is out and #2 is up to bat. At this point if I was the O coach I would put the #2 batter up and hope the D scorekeeper doesn't figure it out and one pitch is thrown.

 

[hookumsnivy]

Very true. It would be more difficult to get away with it in tournaments if every team is keeping the book. In leagues it would be extremely easy (based on the leagues I've played in).
1 league I play in, there's 1 official score book per game and no one uses anything else. The team on offense has the book, and jerseys aren't required.
In another league, there is no official score book and teams don't even exchange lineups. It is very rare for teams to keep track of another team's lineup. Again, jerseys aren't required.

 

[USSSA]

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Originally Posted by USSSA
maybe the most confusing rule in the game

Why? It's pretty simple, really.
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[hookumsnivy]

it is very simple. Once batter 10 completed his bat the defense could have appealed that he batted out of order. This would have produced two outs. #10 is out on the play and #8 out for the BOO and #9 is up.

Fixed the above for you.

I think the USSSA description of Batting Out of Order is lacking:

It says the skipped batter is declared out and all runners must return to bases prior to the illegal AB.
It says nothing about what happens to the illegal batter. It makes no mention of what happens if the batter got a hit or what happens if he made an out.

My interpretation (which may be wrong) is that you treat it as though that AB never happened. The skipped batter is declared out, all runners are returned to their original positions and the batter following the skipped batter is now up.
Here is my reasoning:
If there's a man on 1st and the guy batting out of order gets a single, the runner can't go back to 1st. No runs can score, no runners can advance, so why can an out be recorded?

 

[pompetti]

Speaking USSSA, numbers on shirts are only required at National and World tournaments. A Qualifier tournament or even a State Tournament doesn't require numbers.

 

[Fin09]

That rule really needs to be reworded- after reading it for the third time, I also see where it says that the hitter following the appealed BOO "incorrect batter" would then be up, meaning that if the #10 hitter bats instead of the #8 hitter, and it's discovered, there's an out called, but the #1 hitter would be up, since he bats after #10. So the real #8 and 9 hitters are skipped. That needs to be reworded so the correct hitter, in this case #9, takes his legal turn at bat. #10 follows, then back to the top.
I see where it would be to a team's advantage if they had 5 or 6 studs in the lineup who hit .800 or better to send their #10 hitter up to bat in the 7 spot if 7-10 can't hit their weight. They get one out recorded, 7-10 are skipped, and they're back to the top of the lineup. There's no way that can be the intention of the rule.
I also agree that this is a confusing rule- you have to catch it before a pitch is thrown to the next batter, obviously. That part's easy. But as a player, it wasn't always clear which spot in the lineup was out, who batted next, and what happened after. Now it's entirely too clear. Great.

 

[hookumsnivy]

That rule really needs to be reworded- after reading it for the third time, I also see where it says that the hitter following the appealed BOO "incorrect batter" would then be up, meaning that if the #10 hitter bats instead of the #8 hitter, and it's discovered, there's an out called, but the #1 hitter would be up, since he bats after #10. So the real #8 and 9 hitters are skipped. That needs to be reworded so the correct hitter, in this case #9, takes his legal turn at bat. #10 follows, then back to the top.
I see where it would be to a team's advantage if they had 5 or 6 studs in the lineup who hit .800 or better to send their #10 hitter up to bat in the 7 spot if 7-10 can't hit their weight. They get one out recorded, 7-10 are skipped, and they're back to the top of the lineup. There's no way that can be the intention of the rule.
I also agree that this is a confusing rule- you have to catch it before a pitch is thrown to the next batter, obviously. That part's easy. But as a player, it wasn't always clear which spot in the lineup was out, who batted next, and what happened after. Now it's entirely too clear. Great.

If you catch the batter batting out of order before the next pitch, then it doesn't skip those batters.
For example:
#9 bats instead of #5 and completes the AB
Defense appeals before the 1st pitch to the next batter
#5 is out, everyone returns to where they were
#6 is up.

If the defense doesn't appeal in time, then is skips batters:
#9 bats instead of #5 and completes the AB
A pitch is thrown.
The correct batter is #10

In other words, batters are only skipped if the defense does NOT appeal in time. So the offense only gains an advantage if the defense does NOT notice it in time. If the defense notices it, they get the out (the skipped batter) and the next batter is the batter in the lineup directly after the skipped batter.

 

[joncon]

I think the USSSA description of Batting Out of Order is lacking:

It says the skipped batter is declared out and all runners must return to bases prior to the illegal AB.

It says nothing about what happens to the illegal batter. It makes no mention of what happens if the batter got a hit or what happens if he made an out.

My interpretation (which may be wrong) is that you treat it as though that AB never happened. The skipped batter is declared out, all runners are returned to their original positions and the batter following the skipped batter is now up.

I agree. Is the ASA rule worded differently?

 

[hookumsnivy]

I agree. Is the ASA rule worded differently?

ASA is definitely worded better, but it is still missing one important part:
It doesn't say what happens if the illegal batter gets a hit.
Maybe NCASAUmp could chime in on this part?

ASA is much more strict on illegal batters. If you bat illegally, ANY outs made during your AB stand, and all advancement of runners and any runs scored are nullified. In other words, you have more to lose in ASA by batting illegally.

So in this scenario:
0 outs, runner on 1st
Batter batting out of order hits into a DP - 2 outs
Defense appeals before the next pitch - 3 outs, inning over.

There is no mention of this in the USSSA rulebook.
As I said before, I think it is treated as though the AB never happened in USSSA.

Maybe BretMan has some insight?

 

[NCASAUmp]

ASA is definitely worded better, but it is still missing one important part:
It doesn't say what happens if the illegal batter gets a hit.
Maybe NCASAUmp could chime in on this part?

ASA is much more strict on illegal batters. If you bat illegally, ANY outs made during your AB stand, and all advancement of runners and any runs scored are nullified. In other words, you have more to lose in ASA by batting illegally.

So in this scenario:
0 outs, runner on 1st
Batter batting out of order hits into a DP - 2 outs
Defense appeals before the next pitch - 3 outs, inning over.

There is no mention of this in the USSSA rulebook.
As I said before, I think it is treated as though the AB never happened in USSSA.

Maybe BretMan has some insight?

Sounds right.

Sorry, guys... Since it was a USSSA question, I've largely ignored most of the thread (which has now grown to 23 responses - 24 if you include mine). Is there a specific ASA question I can answer?

 

[hookumsnivy]

ASA Scenario:
Runner on 2nd, 0 outs
Batter #9 bats in place of #7.
He hits a single to the OF and the runner on 2nd scores.
Prior to the next pitch, the defense appeals.

Obviously #7 is declared out.
Runner that scored is returned to 2nd base and #9 is removed from the bases, right?

 

[NCASAUmp]

ASA Scenario:
Runner on 2nd, 0 outs
Batter #9 bats in place of #7.
He hits a single to the OF and the runner on 2nd scores.
Prior to the next pitch, the defense appeals.

Obviously #7 is declared out.
Runner that scored is returned to 2nd base and #9 is removed from the bases, right?

Correct, and batter #8 is now the next batter.

The part I bolded is where a lot of players get confused about the rules regarding batting out of order. They mistakenly believe that the batter who just batted out of order is the one who is called out. This is not the case. It's the batter who was supposed to bat who is called out.