ASA NOT IN THE LINE UP

AG# 1

Member
4th inning and the defense realizes 1 of the players that had just scored was not on the official line up card, he was on the tournament roster but the coach made a mistake and didn't put him on line up card. The player had already batted a couple times scored and had 3 RBI's. Is there a specific USA/ASA rule or rule supplement to cover this??
 

EAJuggalo

Addicted to Softballfans
Did the coach have another player in that position on the line-up card or was that spot missing? If he's on the tournament roster you're not going to get a forfeit, no runs are going to come off the board but you might be able to get an out or two on it the next time.
 

AG# 1

Member
no other player was in his place, the coach just messed up and didn't put his name on the line up sheet
 

EAJuggalo

Addicted to Softballfans
Not much you can do. It's an unreported sub at that point. If the player goes out on defense you can then demand to know who he is subbing in for. Or ask the next time the player comes up to bat. If the lineup only had 9 names on it, the umpire shouldn't have accepted it. If the lineup had 10 on it, I don't know how it would be caught. What should have ideally happened, if say the player not in the lineup batted after B1, once that at-bat is complete you can appeal for batting out of order. Rule 4.6.1.C you would get an out on the player for batting out of order, they are now substituted for B2, all other outs on the play stand and all other runner would return to where they started the at-bat.
 

AG# 1

Member
1) so there can be no forfeit? 2) does he get to stay in the game where does he bat? 3) is he ejected? 4) do his run and rbi's count? 5) do you know if there a specific USA/ASA rule or rule supplement to cover this so I can show my mgr. ??
 

EAJuggalo

Addicted to Softballfans
1. Correct, Rules supplement #51 players on the legal roster can be added to the lineup card as a substitute after the game has begun.
2. There are two different rules that cover this, you could have it as an unreported sub and he would take the position of whomever was in the next spot in the batting order if you caught it while they were hitting, or whomever's position that player is taking on defense.
There is also a separate rule about adding an EP during the game which could take a run off the board and disqualify that player for the rest of the game. Rule 4.4.1 Effect 3.
3. Not an ejection, a disqualification. Treated the same as a sub that has been burned. He can be in the dugout, can coach bases but can not play in the game.
4. depends on how the situation is handled. You're not taking runs off the board that he hit in unless you catch it before the next pitch. The rule is written badly, stating that you can take a run off the board if the unreported EP is on a base when discovered. Personally at this point I'm calling over the TD and UIC to find out what they want me to do. If I'm on my own I'm going to call it an unreported sub and use those penalties.
Rule 4.4, rule 4.6.C and RS#51 are what you are looking at.
 

AG# 1

Member
EA, thx for your answers and stating rules.
so you are saying treat the starting player who is not on the line up as a sub??
I was hoping that NCASA ump or deputy uic houston would also give answers???
 

EAJuggalo

Addicted to Softballfans
EA, thx for your answers and stating rules.
so you are saying treat the starting player who is not on the line up as a sub??
I was hoping that NCASA ump or deputy uic houston would also give answers???
That is what I would do. No idea what else you could do, at least in USA championship play. There is also the issue of it wasn't caught right away. If you catch it the first time, it gets fixed right away.
 

AG# 1

Member
With this player in the lineup, did they have 10 players or 11?

they started with 10 players but only 9 on the line up card and no one caught the missing player, and no subs were available,

I know they can play with 9 but the short handed rule says (a. If a team begins play with the required number of players as listed, that team may continue a game with one less player than is currently in the batting order whenever a player leaves the game for any reason other than ejection) since the player was not on the line up card would he be considered an illegal substitute and removed from the game and would that be considered an ejection and therefore a forfeit??
 

EAJuggalo

Addicted to Softballfans
they started with 10 players but only 9 on the line up card and no one caught the missing player, and no subs were available,

I know they can play with 9 but the short handed rule says (a. If a team begins play with the required number of players as listed, that team may continue a game with one less player than is currently in the batting order whenever a player leaves the game for any reason other than ejection) since the player was not on the line up card would he be considered an illegal substitute and removed from the game and would that be considered an ejection and therefore a forfeit??
No, he is on the roster so it is not an illegal substitute. The fact they only had nine on the line up card means there is fault all around that should have been cleared up immediately. As an umpire I'm letting the UIC and TD figure out what they want to do, above my pay grade. If I'm the UIC or TD I'm probably not going to do anything but have the team fill out a correct lineup card. I will say that if I'm the UIC, that plate umpire and I are going to have a long talk about how to conduct a pre-game meeting. If the lineup card was just written wrong, all parties got a copy of the incorrect lineup and no one caught it... I can't see penalizing the team too harshly.
 

NCASAUmp

Un-Retired
So here’s how I see it. If I’m given a lineup that has 9 players on it, then they’re playing shorthanded. Anytime a team plays shorthanded, they’re allowed to add the 10th player as soon as they become available, and that 10th player does not have to be listed as an available substitute as long as they are a rostered player (we just add them to the list of subs, put them in the game, and move on).

So in this case, that player who was missing from the lineup should now be added as the 10th batter. However, he was not reported as a proper substitute until after he completed his turn at bat and later scored. He’s now officially in the game without penalty (Rule 4-6-C-6).

Under no circumstances is a forfeit ever declared for a botched lineup or an unreported substitute.

We may have some batting out of order rules applying here, but still… no forfeit.
 

AG# 1

Member
NCASA & EA thx for the input, and just for info. since there were not many umpires answering this I e-mailed 2 UIC's from the USA rulebook and gave them the same exact scenario and received similar but not exact responses and both were similar but a little different just like your answers. I guess it's like NCASA wrote above " So here’s how I see it "
 

AG# 1

Member
NCASA below are their responses


# 1) response
Read Rule 4, section 6 Unreported subs/illegal players
In your scenario all play stands after a pitch has been made. So all that went on prior to his discovery in previous innings stands. If the protest occurs right after he scored all play after the ball was hit is canceled. Player is called out and replaced by by proper sub if this is an illegal player. If it is an unreported sub they are called out and then entered into the game. All runners previous are put back on the bases they were on prior to the hit. If it is the 3rd out , the runs that scored as a result of the illegal player/unreported sub are wiped off the board and the inning is over.
If the player is discovered after a pitch to the next batter and the offender is on base, all play before discovery stands and the offender is declared out.

#2) response
Well, since he was on the roster and was just left off the line up and given what it says in Rule 4 1A2. He probably should have been added to the end of the line up in the 10th batting position. He wasn’t an illegal player so no ejection and if a pitch had been thrown no penalties could be invoked. By ejecting him they could not continue play under shorthanded rule because you can only use that if the dropping to 9 was not the result of an ejection.
Batting out of order would be a problem too if a pitch had been thrown so that didn’t come into play.
I would think that adding him to the end of the line up and all play stands would have been more in line with the rule book.
 

NCASAUmp

Un-Retired
Neither answer is wrong - they’re two halves of the same coin. Answer 1 is addressing the fact that this would be treated as a sub, and that the sub wasn’t reported in. Answer 2 addresses where the player would be “subbed in,” and touches on the aspect of batting out of order.

They’re both right answers, just not as thorough as what I said earlier.
 
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