Other Point of No Return // Infield Fly

[Taprootgft]

OK an ump I know had this situation today, and he ruled one way and wasn't sure if it was right. I thought it was wrong but it could go either way. It's a church league, and has the standard halfway home point of no return line.

Situation, Bases Loaded, Batter pops up, and Infield Fly is called, but while this is going on the runner at third has already run over halfway home passing the point of no return, the pop up is caught, and the infielder throws home. He calls the runner at third out even though they had already ran back to the bag and stayed there because they had crossed the line.


Thoughts....

 

[guzzler2209]

Stupid runner.

"Point of no return" as you call it is exactly that. Doesn't matter what the play is...if the runner crosses that line he must continue home. Umpire got it right.

Why the hell was the runner more than halfway home on an infield fly????????? Oh yeah...church league, nevermind.

 

[SevenBizzos]

If it's a "Point of no return" then it sounds like it's just that. Makes sense to me.

 

[BretMan]

In ASA softball, the Commitment Line is only used in senior divisions and only used when a second home plate is provided for the runner to touch. The line is 20 feet from home, well less than "half-way".

If your league is using this exact rule, then we could give you an exact ruling. On the surface, it sounds like maybe they're deviating from it a bit, so I'm not sure if they have their own league rules that cover this.

Under ASA rules, if a runner crosses the line, then goes back to third, he's automatically out. You wouldn't need to tag him, or tag the base if he left early, or even play upon him at all. By retreating after crossing the line, he has violated a rule and is out for doing that alone.

 

[USSSA]

why is there a no return line? they are used only in seniors

 

[NCASAUmp]

why is there a no return line? they are used only in seniors

There are plenty of non-senior leagues that have this setup with a second "scoring plate." For those leagues that want to keep it low-key (and church leagues often do), it's a very good idea.

BretMan's correct. Once the runner crosses the line, he's committed to running home. If he then attempts to return to 3rd, it's an automatic out.

 

[irishmafia]

There are plenty of non-senior leagues that have this setup with a second "scoring plate." For those leagues that want to keep it low-key (and church leagues often do), it's a very good idea.

BretMan's correct. Once the runner crosses the line, he's committed to running home. If he then attempts to return to 3rd, it's an automatic out.

One of the dumbest rules in softball. The seniors want shorter fences with livelier bats and balls, but also a pitcher's box. Hmmm...the irony. They want a full count and no stealing because they want to play the "real" game. But when it comes to home plate, we cannot possibly play that like the real game. I don't get it.

 

[NCASAUmp]

One of the dumbest rules in softball. The seniors want shorter fences with livelier bats and balls, but also a pitcher's box. Hmmm...the irony. They want a full count and no stealing because they want to play the "real" game. But when it comes to home plate, we cannot possibly play that like the real game. I don't get it.

Well, having called a bit of senior ball, I think that the game, as a whole, doesn't have NEARLY the drama that a lot of "regular" slow pitch softball has. The middle wars, the chronic juiced bats (there are some, but not nearly as bad), the attitudes... Significantly reduced.

The second home plate is a good adjustment for safety. The 50 year olds can certainly handle playing on a regular field, but 75O?

If the second home plate is that big a change, maybe we should also get rid of the safety base at 1B.

 

[SoftballGunz]

thats 1 reallllllly high pop up for a runner to tag up and pass a 1/2 way point of no return .. on the infield ..

did he stay on the base untill it was caught and left on the catch? or did he do the jockey move ... left on contact, ran back, tagged up, and then crossed the 1/2 way point?

 

[AWall13]

Never heard of this rule? What is the point of it? No pickles?

 

[NCASAUmp]

Never heard of this rule? What is the point of it? No pickles?

Usually it's safety. Instead of having to tag the runner, home plate becomes like first base: a force out.

 

[AWall13]

Usually it's safety. Instead of having to tag the runner, home plate becomes like first base: a force out.

I guess it makes some sense to use in seniors or maybe coed where it is mostly girl catchers. So is there no pickles?

 

[NCASAUmp]

I guess it makes some sense to use in seniors or maybe coed where it is mostly girl catchers. So is there no pickles?

Well, you can have a pickle between 3rd base and the line, but once they cross that line, they better haul butt to that plate.

 

[hookumsnivy]

Question about the Commitment Line:

In my co-ed USSSA work league we have the commitment line with the 2nd home plate. I understand the point of it - to avoid collisions just like the double 1st base bag. In my league you CAN NOT tag the runner at the plate. You MUST touch the base for the force out.
Is that the standard rule? It seems weird that you can't tag the runner seeing as you can tag the batter-runner going to first. Especially at home where throws are more likely to be up the line.

 

[Taprootgft]

OK, got a decent amount of answers, and probably should add something onto this to clarify some things, the runner had passed the point of no return prior to tagging up, so they legally could not continue to the plate without going all the way back and tagging up. Runner ran on contact had crossed the line, saw the ball was caught and ran back.


It's a church league where there are actually a decent number of people on teams over 50, so yeah they have the point of no return and the scoring plate.

 

[Taprootgft]

Never heard of this rule? What is the point of it? No pickles?

Basically yeah no pickles, once you cross the line you are committed to running home, you can't see the ball get to the plate and run back to third. In this league, if its a force, yeah they can just step on the plate, but if its not, the catcher need only made the swinging tag motion in the direction of the scoring plate before the runner gets there, if they have the ball and don't do that the runner is safe. I'm not in the league, but yeah they're extreme safety oriented, no sliding, last year you could run through all bases (which yeah thankfully they changed that this year)

 

[NCASAUmp]

OK, got a decent amount of answers, and probably should add something onto this to clarify some things, the runner had passed the point of no return prior to tagging up, so they legally could not continue to the plate without going all the way back and tagging up. Runner ran on contact had crossed the line, saw the ball was caught and ran back.


It's a church league where there are actually a decent number of people on teams over 50, so yeah they have the point of no return and the scoring plate.

ASA says that once they've crossed that line, they may not return, even if it is to tag up on a caught fly ball. Smart runners will toe the line, but wait for the fielder to touch the ball.

Question about the Commitment Line:

In my co-ed USSSA work league we have the commitment line with the 2nd home plate. I understand the point of it - to avoid collisions just like the double 1st base bag. In my league you CAN NOT tag the runner at the plate. You MUST touch the base for the force out.
Is that the standard rule? It seems weird that you can't tag the runner seeing as you can tag the batter-runner going to first. Especially at home where throws are more likely to be up the line.

Yes, ASA has the same rule. If you tag the runner past the commitment line, it's not an out. I wonder if you could call obstruction, since they could illegally impede your progress in doing so. The book does not have such a rule, so I doubt you could actually rule that. Wonder if I can get that changed if that's the case...

 

[eddieq]

Sooooo, question about the commit line. Does your whole body have to be across it or once you're foot steps even part of the way over, you are committed? I guess I could look it up, but I'm lazy

 

[Taprootgft]

ASA says that once they've crossed that line, they may not return, even if it is to tag up on a caught fly ball. Smart runners will toe the line, but wait for the fielder to touch the ball.



Yes, ASA has the same rule. If you tag the runner past the commitment line, it's not an out. I wonder if you could call obstruction, since they could illegally impede your progress in doing so. The book does not have such a rule, so I doubt you could actually rule that. Wonder if I can get that changed if that's the case...

That being said, would the out be at the plate or would they just have to throw to 3rd for the force, or would either work or just call the runner out period?

 

[NCASAUmp]

Sooooo, question about the commit line. Does your whole body have to be across it or once you're foot steps even part of the way over, you are committed? I guess I could look it up, but I'm lazy

If I recall correctly, it's one foot completely past the line. It's not spelled out in the book, but I believe that's the interpretation from the UIC who does ASA Senior tourneys. I can get verification of that if you really want.

That being said, would the out be at the plate or would they just have to throw to 3rd for the force, or would either work or just call the runner out period?

You mean if the runner crosses the line and attempts to go back to third? It's an automatic out. The defense doesn't have to do anything: no throws, no appeals, nothing.

Unless bases are loaded, anything between third base and the line is a tag play. Anything between the line and home plate becomes a force.

 

[joncon]

One time, playing senior ball, I rounded 3B, turned to see where the ball was (coming from right field). I saw the 2B was recieving the ball so I went back to the bag.

Unfortunately the field crew marked the commit line 20' from 3B instead of 20' from home. My footprint was right on the line for everyone to see and I got called out