Pro Ms in Viera (continued observations)

[TWmccoy]

In numerous other threads I've posted about Pro Ms and my experiences with them in various places. Everywhere from TX, CO, or FL. Initially, I was a fan of the Pro M when it came out in 2019. Hitting the ball in FL I saw great results, and it was a noticeable step up from the ZN classic Ms Viera had used before.

Oh, how times have changed. The Pro Ms of 2021 absolutely suck. These balls are so bad I'd almost beg for the ZN classic Ms back. I don't know what's going on with Dudley's QC these days, but the Pro Ms I've seen this year ARE NOT the same ball that came out in 2019. Newer Pro Ms are mushy, dead, and seem to knuckle excessively off the bat. I find that I have a very hard time generating backspin with them, and everything I hit knuckles and dies very short.

I've played in Viera twice in the last month (and go again in 2 weeks). Both times the ball was abysmally bad. I played in 40+ events, so senior bats were allowed, and the (temp) fences were set at 300' (usually 325'). Even at reduced field size the Pro Ms were very hard to hit out. I found that I absolutely had to step on balls to get them past 300'. Senior bats seemed to make a difference and produce better distance, but that's somewhat beside the point.

Last weekend was military worlds. I played on white Rawlings and Demarini. Both of these fields proved to be absolute dead zones for ball flight. Outfielders were playing like 60' in front of the fence, and at no point were they in danger of getting burned. I miraculously got a ball into the jetstream in RC on white Rawlings and hit one out. It was the only time I even came close to the fence. I used a DC41 that tests right at 220. Even off that bat the ball feels limp and mushy.

We had the 5th game (1:30 PM) of the day on white Rawlings. I asked the ump how many HRs he had seen, and it was only 1, during the 8 AM game. Counting mine, that made 2 HR hit in 5 games. That's appalling. These are not bad hitters here.

Viera has become a no-fly zone. Watching games on all fields I didn't see anyone even coming close to the fence with Pro Ms. The balls are ridiculously dead, and perform horribly in Viera. They knuckle all the time and come off the bat with all the velocity of a child's safety ball. To have any chance of going yard down there you better play early in the morning or late at night, and hope you play on a field with the wind blowing out.

Accordingly, the scoring for this tourny was awful. Simply getting to 10 runs was an accomplishment, and that total would almost certainly win you a game.

Anyone else have any thoughts? The Pro M is garbage. I'd rather use C+ down there.

 

[EAJuggalo]

I've only worked in Viera once, last year for Worlds, and am going back in two weeks. Every tournament I've worked for the last two years has been using the ProM, I agree the ball plays completely different than it did in 2019 when it was released. I've talked with Conference players about it and most of them agree as well.
That said, the ProM from 2019 was too much ball for the vast majority of the fields they were using them on. I think the ball spec was changed to be closer to the bottom of the range rather than the top of the range it was in 2019. It is now much closer to the ClassicM but with more knuckle, it seems to be not quite as heat dependent as the Classic but more so than it was prior to this year. Of the Conference games I've umpired, you could see the ball start flying better as soon as the sun started going down and temp dropped by 5 degrees. Guys I talked to that worked the night shift at Challenge Cup said the same thing, everyone would run out of home runs in the third inning at 3am but leave them a bunch on the board at 11.
I like where the game is now, seeing Major, AA and A teams actually playing the game rather than taking a walk, a single and then hitting a three run shot on command. I want to see what AA and A worlds scores look like with 240 bats and this batch of ProMs.

 

[TWmccoy]

I've only worked in Viera once, last year for Worlds, and am going back in two weeks. Every tournament I've worked for the last two years has been using the ProM, I agree the ball plays completely different than it did in 2019 when it was released. I've talked with Conference players about it and most of them agree as well.
That said, the ProM from 2019 was too much ball for the vast majority of the fields they were using them on. I think the ball spec was changed to be closer to the bottom of the range rather than the top of the range it was in 2019. It is now much closer to the ClassicM but with more knuckle, it seems to be not quite as heat dependent as the Classic but more so than it was prior to this year. Of the Conference games I've umpired, you could see the ball start flying better as soon as the sun started going down and temp dropped by 5 degrees. Guys I talked to that worked the night shift at Challenge Cup said the same thing, everyone would run out of home runs in the third inning at 3am but leave them a bunch on the board at 11.
I like where the game is now, seeing Major, AA and A teams actually playing the game rather than taking a walk, a single and then hitting a three run shot on command. I want to see what AA and A worlds scores look like with 240 bats and this batch of ProMs.

I'll be interested to hear what you think when you go back to Viera. I'll be there in a couple weeks for C worlds.

Temperature obviously makes a difference with the Pro M, but I also feel like it isn't as severe a difference as it was with classic Ms. Pro Ms never feel super hard, even when it's chilly out. I fully agree that in certain settings the Pro M is way too much ball, especially if it isn't very hot out. What really woke me up as to how poorly this ball performs was the major in Loveland (CO) this year. Usually the place is an absolute launch pad. This year it was a chore to hit HRs. TX in May the ball seemed to play pretty fair. A well struck shot would get out, but I didn't feel like the ball jumped excessively.

The Challenge Cup was something different entirely. I played in it 2 years ago, and the ball absolutely jumped. I think those were still the good Pro Ms, plus the temp was dramatically cooler. At night it got flat out cold and the ball felt like a rock.

During the day with 240 bats I think you'll see a pretty dramatic decrease in HRs down there from what you're used to to.

BTW, the batch of Pro Ms used in Viera this past weekend is NOT the same batch they used in Loveland earlier this year. That said, both batches feel about the same (crappy).

 

[ilyk2win]

I was there. That 0800 game HR was hit off me ironically. That field the wind blew out towards RCF most of the day. We had multiple balls hit beyond 300', but not beyond whatever the fences are at Viera. The semi finals I watched 3 balls hit out to LF on Demarini. I agree that HR numbers were low, but I attributed that to the heat and wind as much as I did the ball. We as a team only hit 1 HR in 6 games but had plenty of XBH. As a pitcher I enjoyed the way the ball played. If you hit it well, you were rewarded......defense mattered.....pitchers could defend themselves. In the middle of the day (heat), it "felt" softer, but still came off the bat well enough. Seemed more like softball and not HR derby and definitely no accidental HR's.....although the one we hit was accidental.

 

[EAJuggalo]

I'll be interested to hear what you think when you go back to Viera. I'll be there in a couple weeks for C worlds.

Temperature obviously makes a difference with the Pro M, but I also feel like it isn't as severe a difference as it was with classic Ms. Pro Ms never feel super hard, even when it's chilly out. I fully agree that in certain settings the Pro M is way too much ball, especially if it isn't very hot out. What really woke me up as to how poorly this ball performs was the major in Loveland (CO) this year. Usually the place is an absolute launch pad. This year it was a chore to hit HRs. TX in May the ball seemed to play pretty fair. A well struck shot would get out, but I didn't feel like the ball jumped excessively.

The Challenge Cup was something different entirely. I played in it 2 years ago, and the ball absolutely jumped. I think those were still the good Pro Ms, plus the temp was dramatically cooler. At night it got flat out cold and the ball felt like a rock.

During the day with 240 bats I think you'll see a pretty dramatic decrease in HRs down there from what you're used to to.

BTW, the batch of Pro Ms used in Viera this past weekend is NOT the same batch they used in Loveland earlier this year. That said, both batches feel about the same (crappy).

I'm down for E, so I'm not expecting to see all that many home runs, but I'll take all I can get. Do you know what the batch was in Viera? I thought the ball played more lively in Dallas in April than it did in Minneapolis in June or Cincy in either July or August.

 

[TWmccoy]

I was there. That 0800 game HR was hit off me ironically. That field the wind blew out towards RCF most of the day. We had multiple balls hit beyond 300', but not beyond whatever the fences are at Viera. The semi finals I watched 3 balls hit out to LF on Demarini. I agree that HR numbers were low, but I attributed that to the heat and wind as much as I did the ball. We as a team only hit 1 HR in 6 games but had plenty of XBH. As a pitcher I enjoyed the way the ball played. If you hit it well, you were rewarded......defense mattered.....pitchers could defend themselves. In the middle of the day (heat), it "felt" softer, but still came off the bat well enough. Seemed more like softball and not HR derby and definitely no accidental HR's.....although the one we hit was accidental.

I can't really disagree with any of what you're saying. The Pro M will leave the park, but it definitely takes a Ruthian swat to do so.

I played for Peterson AFB out of CO. I guess we have things good here as far as balls go. The ball flies great in CO, and teams blow through HR limits with no trouble at all. I feel like my team got exposed bad in FL. We went 2-2. The 2 wins we had were pillow fights. At no point did we hit well. Defense dominated all 4 games we played, and in our last game a couple crucial errors lost it for us.

In our 4 games I had the only HR, and no one else really even came close. I've played softball in probably 10 different states, and in all those places the fields in Viera are the toughest to hit in. The wind always blows, often from an unfavorable direction. The fields are large, and play even larger in that heat/humidity.

 

[TWmccoy]

I'm down for E, so I'm not expecting to see all that many home runs, but I'll take all I can get. Do you know what the batch was in Viera? I thought the ball played more lively in Dallas in April than it did in Minneapolis in June or Cincy in either July or August.

CQ was the latest batch of balls in Viera. I don't know which batch they used in Mansfield in May, but I felt like those balls flew fairly well. It also wasn't super hot.

I'll come back here and update my findings from C worlds next week. I'd assume they'll use the same batch of balls as last weekend.

 

[ilyk2win]

I can't really disagree with any of what you're saying. The Pro M will leave the park, but it definitely takes a Ruthian swat to do so.

I played for Peterson AFB out of CO. I guess we have things good here as far as balls go. The ball flies great in CO, and teams blow through HR limits with no trouble at all. I feel like my team got exposed bad in FL. We went 2-2. The 2 wins we had were pillow fights. At no point did we hit well. Defense dominated all 4 games we played, and in our last game a couple crucial errors lost it for us.

In our 4 games I had the only HR, and no one else really even came close. I've played softball in probably 10 different states, and in all those places the fields in Viera are the toughest to hit in. The wind always blows, often from an unfavorable direction. The fields are large, and play even larger in that heat/humidity.

Defense was definitely the difference this past weekend. In NJ, routine fly balls leave the fields regularly....not the case in Viera. We played small ball well, used speed to our advantage, and defended extremely well, avg only giving up 5 runs per game for 6 games.

I'll be with Deluxe Bakery next weekend. Come by and I'll make @bigwignj buy you a beer

 

[TWmccoy]

One of CO's best teams (Denver Stars) is 3-0 at B worlds right now.... and they've hit 2 HR in 3 games. That's how bad the ball is flying. These guys are mashers, too.

 

[EAJuggalo]

I've watched quite a bit of the B and A worlds this weekend. The only guys hitting them out are really getting ahold of it. I just saw Premier lost 3-2 tonight. The ProM, Viera and 240's seems to be hurting a lot of teams. I don't think I've seen a team run out of HR's this weekend.

 

[bigwignj]

Geeee, thanks Joe. Hopefully he doesn’t want the souvenir cup.

 

[EAJuggalo]

CQ was the latest batch of balls in Viera. I don't know which batch they used in Mansfield in May, but I felt like those balls flew fairly well. It also wasn't super hot.

I'll come back here and update my findings from C worlds next week. I'd assume they'll use the same batch of balls as last weekend.

Jason Branch just posted that there are three different batches being used in Viera this week. He said that the batch BA is the best of them and very good, the others are not. I'd be interested to see what you come across this weekend before I head down next week.

 

[TWmccoy]

Jason Branch just posted that there are three different batches being used in Viera this week. He said that the batch BA is the best of them and very good, the others are not. I'd be interested to see what you come across this weekend before I head down next week.

I head down Wed. and play Thursday. I'll make note of which balls we use. I think the batch we used for military was CQ (and they sucked really bad). I start on white Rawlings at 12:30 PM. Going to need that RC power again if I want to hit any out....

 

[EAJuggalo]

I head down Wed. and play Thursday. I'll make note of which balls we use. I think the batch we used for military was CQ (and they sucked really bad). I start on white Rawlings at 12:30 PM. Going to need that RC power again if I want to hit any out....

Good luck in the C. 81 teams, should be fun. I almost wish I was going to be there this weekend instead.

 

[bigwignj]

Balls were turds in the red fields. So a couple 2-1 games. White fields seems to be scoring more runs.

 

[TWmccoy]

My team struggled pretty bad at C worlds. Went 1-2. We played 2 games on white Rawlings and 1 on red Easton. First game was middle of the day, and the ball felt like nerf. Wind was blowing the usual direction on white Rawlings (L-R cross wind). I managed to hit a ball out to RC that almost hit the awning. One monster for the other team smashed a cut shot to RC that got out.

Our 2nd game was after dark, and the ball started flying a bit. No one on our team went yard.

3rd game on red Easton was in the middle of the night after a long rain delay. Temp cooled noticeably, and the ball actually felt decent for the first time. I hit 2 HRs, one of which went over the back fence into the net. The other team had 2 or 3 HR as well. No wind.

I saw various batches of Pro Ms being used for C worlds. The balls were generally in good condition, and I didn't see any beaters. I don't feel like any batch was better/worse than others. My thoughts on this ball haven't changed. Pro Ms perform miserably bad midday in the heat of Viera. They come off the bat limply, and often knuckle. At times it takes an absolutely Ruthian shot to hit those balls 325'. At night things get better, and the ball firms up somewhat. Simply scoring 10 runs will win you a lot of games using the Pro M in Viera.

For C worlds they only used white Marucci and Rawlings, and red Easton and Marucci. Those 4 fields always have the wind blowing in. The other fields were being used by women.

 

[EAJuggalo]

I'm down here now, we have BN and BT in the stadium, no idea what is on the outer fields. Not jumping off the bats but not bad until you get to about 2 or 3 with balls that have been in the bucket all day. Half the teams are hitting their one home run, only two ieos in 14 games so far.

 

[TWmccoy]

I'm down here now, we have BN and BT in the stadium, no idea what is on the outer fields. Not jumping off the bats but not bad until you get to about 2 or 3 with balls that have been in the bucket all day. Half the teams are hitting their one home run, only two ieos in 14 games so far.

325's a good poke for an E player in those conditions. 95% of the C players I saw weren't hitting anything that far regardless of temperature.

 

[EAJuggalo]

Had a batch change for the championship rounds last night. CQ was the new batch. I don't know if it was the level of the players, the temperature difference or the ball, but it seemed to go better last night than any other time of the tournament.

 

[TWmccoy]

Had a batch change for the championship rounds last night. CQ was the new batch. I don't know if it was the level of the players, the temperature difference or the ball, but it seemed to go better last night than any other time of the tournament.

We used the CQ balls for military worlds. During the day they were terrible.

The ball definitely flies better at night in Viera, regardless of batch. The temps go down the wind stops.

 

[ilyk2win]

325's a good poke for an E player in those conditions. 95% of the C players I saw weren't hitting anything that far regardless of temperature.

They had the fences at 300' for the E is what I was told.

 

[TWmccoy]

They had the fences at 300' for the E is what I was told.

That 25' makes a MASSIVE difference in a place like Viera. Even B and C players were having trouble hitting balls out.

I didn't know E played on shorter fields. As far as I know, all other men's worlds (except senior) use 325' fields.

 

[EAJuggalo]

That 25' makes a MASSIVE difference in a place like Viera. Even B and C players were having trouble hitting balls out.

I didn't know E played on shorter fields. As far as I know, all other men's worlds (except senior) use 325' fields.

I think it varies by director, Stro is usually the director for B and up, this year they included C in that. Jim Pilla is usually the director for C and below, this year it's D and E. If you notice when you were there for C, all the umpires wore pants the whole week, for E we were in shorts until the final four games. I did not measure the fences this week, nor did I get out to the white quad to see if they had temp fences up.

 

[jbo911]

I wish there was less of this. I don't care about your pants, but that 25 feet isn't a small change. I know, it's still a level playing field of everyone's on that field, but it's still annoying.

I went to nsa supers many years ago, and after 2 years of playing with 44/400s, we get there and they're using 44/525s in October. In Indiana. It was crazy.

I'd just like their goal to be consistency over freedom or whatever they call it. What's the point of an association if it's not consistency?

 

[ilyk2win]

I wish there was less of this. I don't care about your pants, but that 25 feet isn't a small change. I know, it's still a level playing field of everyone's on that field, but it's still annoying.

I went to nsa supers many years ago, and after 2 years of playing with 44/400s, we get there and they're using 44/525s in October. In Indiana. It was crazy.

I'd just like their goal to be consistency over freedom or whatever they call it. What's the point of an association if it's not consistency?

Agreed! We don't play on a field over 300' all year and never use the ProM. It's like playing a different game in FL. Both teams in the same situation, but what's the point of playing all year to go play essentially a different game?

 

[gaternation]

Utrip in Fl is a joke. The pro M is a total tampon, $675 for a tournament for a 3 gg, blistering FL heat, 325 ft fence, Viera where balls completely die, $6 bottles of water. Is this a ***** fest- yes but for good reason. Our senior team averaged 5 runs per game which is beyond awful for a high level senior team however in the A worlds a few weeks ago there were 49 teams and 20 teams averaged under 10 runs per game. If Utrip wants to take the kids money and rip them off that's on them however, all of the senior teams we spoke to said no one is going back to that crap. Fortunately we have many other great choices here in FL and utrip won't be included by many of us.

 

[TWmccoy]

Utrip in Fl is a joke. The pro M is a total tampon, $675 for a tournament for a 3 gg, blistering FL heat, 325 ft fence, Viera where balls completely die, $6 bottles of water. Is this a ***** fest- yes but for good reason. Our senior team averaged 5 runs per game which is beyond awful for a high level senior team however in the A worlds a few weeks ago there were 49 teams and 20 teams averaged under 10 runs per game. If Utrip wants to take the kids money and rip them off that's on them however, all of the senior teams we spoke to said no one is going back to that crap. Fortunately we have many other great choices here in FL and utrip won't be included by many of us.

There are parts of your statement I definitely agree with. The balls ABSOLUTELY suck. Other than when the Pro M first came out in 2019 I haven't used a "good" ball in Viera. They seem to go out of their way to provide players with the crappiest balls possible. Space Coast is also the deadest place I've ever played in. By that I mean the ball flies worse there than anywhere else I've seen.

I don't mind paying the money to fly down to FL to play. What I DO mind is (as you mentioned) getting scalped for gate fees daily, concessions being ridiculously priced, and beer being $8 for a 16 oz can. That is f'ing ridiculous. Space Coast used to provide jugs of ice water in every dugout at all times. They don't anymore, so you're basically stuck drinking whatever you bring in, or getting extorted on concession prices. You literally spend $50 a day there just buying drinks to avoid dehydration.

USSSA is a greedy, corporate organization now. They nickel and dime you any chance they get, and it saps the fun out of what would otherwise be a pleasant experience.

 

[TWmccoy]

Agreed! We don't play on a field over 300' all year and never use the ProM. It's like playing a different game in FL. Both teams in the same situation, but what's the point of playing all year to go play essentially a different game?

Playing in FL very much IS a different game than most guys are used to. I live in CO, and I play probably 30 tournies a year. Every year, numerous CO teams make the trek to Viera to play USSSA worlds in one class or another. CO teams almost always suck down there. It's simply a different game, and the ball doesn't fly ANYTHING like it does in CO. Guys here fly out in 3/4 of their ABs, and it isn't uncommon at all for GOOD TEAMS to score under 10 runs.

Every year it's the same thing. Teams go from CO to FL full of optimism and hope, only to go home later with another 1-2 or 0-2 finish wondering WTF happened.

Playing down there can be rewarding, but it's also extremely exhausting and often demoralizing.

 

[gaternation]

I live here and by far utrip makes it the worse experience. There are many other ways to make the experience really good which other associations do, utrip combines the worse of every combination. They can be just as profitable with a good ball, not gouging people in viera, etc. Like I said for senior ball they won't get us back and virtually every other team we spoke to said the same thing. Even Andy Purcell admitted that it was terrible at the worlds

 

[TWmccoy]

I live here and by far utrip makes it the worse experience. There are many other ways to make the experience really good which other associations do, utrip combines the worse of every combination. They can be just as profitable with a good ball, not gouging people in viera, etc. Like I said for senior ball they won't get us back and virtually every other team we spoke to said the same thing. Even Andy Purcell admitted that it was terrible at the worlds

I played 40+ worlds down there a couple months ago, and we played all our games in the stadium. Other than it being hot as hell, things weren't that bad. I saw plenty of guys going yard (temp fence at 300'). Senior bats make a big difference on those balls in the heat.

My main beefs with Viera (as mentioned above) is the nickel and diming on gate fees and concessions.

BTW, I think this is the first year USSSA has attempted to run senior tournies.