SLOW PITCH SLIDER... AGAIN

WiLD53

Well-Known Member
here's the file with everything you need to know to throw this pitch... i don't come in here very often but if anyone asks a question, i will address it when i see it... currently, dennis is tearing up his senior tourneys with it and normy seems to have gone fishing but he was getting it too... so if anyone is interested... here it is...

let me say this one time to start... if you don't make a bullseye ball, you won't be able to perfect this pitch... before you even try to throw one, make a bullseye ball like the one i use in practice in the video... i found a roll of masking tape or duct tape fits the seam perfectly...

also, use the pinky tuck... it works... i have a photo posted at the end of the post... :cool:

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SLOWPITCH SLIDER

DESCRIPTION
First… click on this link and watch this video. Pay close attention to the physics involved and the segment on how it applies to a baseball... or a softball. That’s what this is about… applying this effect to our game.

THE MAGNUS FORCE
We’re all aware of the physics behind a curveball… high RM’s, with help from the seams, redirect the high and low-pressure areas around the ball thereby pushing it in the direction of the rotation. It’s called the Magnus Force. It was discovered in the Middle Ages by a guy named Magnus who was asked to find out why some cannonballs curved… He concluded that a spinning ball will curve in the direction of the spin.

THE SMOOTH.ROUGH SIDE EFFECT
Now I want to introduce you to a new method of inducing the Magnus Force. It’s well known to cricket players but entirely unknown to baseball players. We’ll call it the “Smooth/Rough Side Effect” since I’ve been unable to find any name attached to it. Basically, it says if a ball has a rough side and a smooth side, and is thrown so the rough side stays on one side of the direction of movement, the ball will curve towards the rough side.


APPLIED TO SLOW PITCH SOFTBALL
So, how do we apply this to slow pitch softball? The secret is to use the seam as the rough side and the round area inside the horseshoe of that same seam as the smooth side. Verbal descriptions fall short so let me just say the Veritasium video explains it well and visually. Basically, you have to align the spin so the axis of rotation goes through the center of the leading smooth spot. Then all you have to do is orient the axis of rotation properly to the direction of motion. Simple.

BULLSEYE BALL… GRIP… AND RELEASE
The following video explains the next 3 sections.

THE BULLSEYE BALL
When I first considered trying to teach this pitch to others, I didn’t know about the rough/smooth side effect. I was just going to say do exactly what I do and maybe it will curve. As I was researching other videos in order to pick up some ideas, I came across the Veritasium video. I’d actually seen it a couple of years before but didn’t realize its’ significance. Once I saw it again, it hit me. This is what’s been making my pitch curve for the past 20 years.

I went through about 3 months of confusion followed by insight followed by more confusion in my efforts to figure it out. Part of my confusion came from going back and forth between the pitcher's perspective and the catcher's. At some point, it crossed my mind to draw a circle around the smooth spot so I could better visualize what was going on. Sometime later I realized that it might be a good idea to use that ball in order to see what was going on with my pitch. And the bullseye ball was born.
I now practice with a ball that has a bullseye on each side so my catcher can give me feedback and I can see what’s happening as well. Now I can also teach it to others in a manner that enhances the chances of learning it, with both the reason it works and a way to learn it and refine it.

THE GRIP
As with any pitch, it starts with the grip. In the video, I showed you a ball with one line drawn around the middle of it… essentially… if you release the ball perfectly even with all fingers… this line is where your middle finger should go in order to get the right axis of rotation… however, we all have little things we do as we release the ball that will change this… that’s why you should start with a grip in between the two bullseyes and then adjust from there to find the grip that gets you a stable bullseye.
How do you adjust? When you throw this pitch with the correct spin, the bullseye should look clear, not wobbly. If you can, try to feel how the ball is coming off your fingers. In my case, it comes mostly off my index and middle fingers, so I try to put them in the middle of the bullseyes. Since I use a 2-seam grip, this means I basically have it lined up straight. If you feel like it’s coming off your ring and middle fingers… then you might try turning the ball even further left in order to get those 2 fingers centered between the bullseyes.

In any case, don’t give up too easily. It shouldn’t take too long to find your grip but you might have to work to get consistency. Also, keep in mind… you won’t throw any sliders with just the right rotation. It needs to be correctly oriented to the direction the ball is traveling as well.
The last thing is perhaps the most important. How do you get the spin oriented to break on the way down? I do a pinky tuck. I don't know why it works and i can't say it will work for everyone. i can say it's worth a try. I suggest you get a slider first before trying this but that might not be necessary... you can decide for yourself.
I've also considered the possibility of bending my wrist back a little to try to get the slightly downward orientation but so far i haven't thought to try it in practice. I'll update this once i try it and get some results.

THE RELEASE
Along with getting a good bullseye, you want to work on orienting the spin so it will slide… here’s a short video showing my delivery and release. In the 2nd clip I show the ball and the hand orientation needed to get the slide. If you pay attention to the backstop post in the 3rd and 4th clips you can see the ball move away from it indicating movement.
 

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WiLD53

Well-Known Member
PART 2

A LITTLE HISTORY
Back when I first started throwing a curve, I only had it on one field. The field was oriented so the wind blew out to right-center and I got about an 8” curve. I always figured it was just wind-assisted since I had no concept of the smooth/rough side effect. Now I realize it was merely changing the direction of the flow of air around the ball to induce this effect.

In fact, one weekend I was pitching in a tournament in San Clemente and I had about a 20 MPH wind blowing out to right-center on one field. I was getting a 4-foot curve if I threw it in one direction and nothing if I threw it about 3 degrees to the right. Everyone at the tourney that wasn’t playing was on our field watching. The only problem was I couldn’t throw any strikes but it was fun as hell. I had to take myself out after a few innings but I came back in the last two since no one else could throw strikes in that wind either. Now I know why those 3 degrees were so important. It put the seam on the wrong side of the airflow.

Over the years I tried different things but nothing seemed to work. About 20 years ago, for some reason, I turned my hand in a bit more than normal and I started getting a curve and I was getting it on any field even without wind. Still, I had no clue why it curved and I couldn’t fix it on those days it wasn’t working. However, at that point it didn’t matter much. My curve was inconsistent but that just kept the batters off balance. Since I learned of the smooth/rough side effect, I can adjust the amount of curve I get with simple adjustments. Now I can throw this with a 3-2 count because I know how much curve i can expect. Before this, I had to forget it because I couldn’t predict how much it would move.

It turns out all I had to do was turn my hand about 15-20 degrees inward which changed the orientation of the spin… about the same as the angle of the wind blowing out to right-center. And still, I did not have any idea as to why it curved.

As I said, when I first decided to try and teach this to someone, all I had to offer was “throw it like this and maybe it will curve.” You have no idea how relieved I was to find that Veritasium video. It meant I had something more concrete to offer… and once I discovered the bullseye ball, I had a concrete way to teach it. I also realized this isn’t a curveball in the sense that we understand it so I decided to call it a slider instead.

EFFECT OF THE ARC
Now it’s time to look at the orientation of the spin in connection with the arc of the pitch. Looking at it logically, if you have the spin aimed slightly up then the ball should slide on the way up and not on the way down. If you have the spin aimed level then it should slide at the top of the arc. And if it’s aimed slightly down then it should slide on the way down. Since I don’t have access to slow-motion cameras all of this is speculation. However, I’ve thrown two of these types of sliders without being able to determine what I did yet. The exception is the one that breaks on the way down. I know what I do with that one.

Keep in mind, the flatter the pitch, the more time it will have to slide due to the lack of arc. My flat pitch seems to slide almost the entire way sometimes so I’m currently trying to figure out what to do in order to get what I want when I want it.

Another factor to consider is how the spin orientation is affected by the curve itself. If you have the seam oriented so that it is just barely left of center, then as soon as it slides a little it will stop because the seam gets centered. I think the best approach is getting the seam about an inch to the left of center so it slides a little at the start of the downward slope and slides into the perfect alignment where it curves the most.

THE WIND
Something I realized a couple of days ago after holding another clinic is how the wind affects this pitch. Since its slow pitch and the airflow around the ball is critical, any wind can affect what happens. I first started throwing it with a slight wind blowing out to right-center. Since I was releasing the pitch with my hand more behind the ball rather than on the side, the wind compensated for my lack of the appropriate angle.

One reason I hadn’t considered this before is the fields I’ve played on the past 15 years don’t have much wind ever. That doesn’t change the fact it can screw with this pitch. If you pitch on fields that have wind, then you will definitely need to compensate for it.

How then do you compensate?

Let me start by saying any wind blowing in will negate this effect to some degree. I’m not sure there’s anything you can do about it, but I assume there will be varying degrees of adverse effect so I also have to assume there will be varying degrees of how much slide you can get. The good news is when the wind’s blowing in that’s already to your advantage in most cases.

If the wind is blowing out, then we have fun… if it’s blowing out to center then just throw the normal slider and the wind will enhance it… as the wind direction moves to right-center all you have to do is change the angle of your wrist about the same amount. In other words… if the wind is blowing out about 5 degrees from dead center towards right… then all you do is flatten the angle of your wrist out on release by about 3 degrees. This is a fact I have experience with so I know it’s true. The combination of the wind and the forward momentum of the ball determines the direction the air flows. All you have to do is find out which angle you need your wrist at in order to take advantage of the wind and that’s best done by trial and error. Within 5 or 6 pitches you should be able to figure out what angle to use

This next part is mostly speculation. If the wind is to the left side of center, the more you may have to turn your wrist in to get a slide. It’s also a good time to know how to throw a back door slider… which I will explain in the near future.

If you have a crosswind from either side, then i suggest a 2 seam backspin pitch works well especially if you can get the right orientation of the spin to the airflow. And of course, you have to work with the grip to get the stable bullseye on the side the wind is coming from. This pitch definitely slides if you get it oriented correctly. In that same tourney where I got the 4-foot slide, the field next to it had the wind blowing out to left-center and I was getting a 1 - 2 foot slide there. I now know it was because a 2 seam backspin pitch has a relatively stable smooth spot and the wind direction made the air pass over the ball at the right angle to get this slide. So once again, if you use a backspin with the wind blowing out to left-left center, all you have to do is find the angle you have to release the ball in order to get the airflow around the ball correctly oriented to get a backdoor slider.
 

andy-rockstar

Living for the Cit-ay
I started messing with this last summer when I was pressed into more regular pitching duty. I never really got the glove-side run going, but I could get a little arm-side run when I wanted to. I never got to put in any practice to really hone it in, but it was fun seeing what I could do with it.
 

WiLD53

Well-Known Member
I started messing with this last summer when I was pressed into more regular pitching duty. I never really got the glove-side run going, but I could get a little arm-side run when I wanted to. I never got to put in any practice to really hone it in, but it was fun seeing what I could do with it.
try making a bullseye ball... that's the only way to see if the ball is oriented correctly while in flight... :cool:
 

D-ROCK13

Well-Known Member
I've been pitching for 20+ years now, took a lot of practice but have pretty good movement to either side now. Wind and humidity both play a part in my opinion and it takes even more practice to adjust to various conditions. The key is practice and always mix it up, height, speed, location, pitch type. It's obviously no where as effective as it is in modified or baseball but, any advantage can help some.
 

WiLD53

Well-Known Member
after i quit posting here, i discovered a guy on youtube that teaches this same pitch with a backspin... if any of you are interested in that approach... he also has a screwball and much better video equipment than i do... by far... and he's more photogenic than i will ever be... :cool:


 

Normy

Well-Known Member
I used his screwball last season with pretty good success. When I threw it right of course. The backspin slider on the other hand not so much. Couldn't get my wrist pronation right apparently. Focusing mainly on my knuckleball consistency. It was working well today but there are other days where I can't throw it at all. Weird.
 

bimmerpilot

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
@WiLD53
I have memories of Kevin Mitchell picking up on our team and taking a shot deep on that field, drilling that building/warehouse roof...

I'll have to circle back and read this thread in entirety
 

WiLD53

Well-Known Member
@bimmerpilot... true story... i was pitching in a tourney at the sportsplex and kevin mitchell was facing me... [i didn't even realize it was him until he was about to step into the batter's box] the first time, i struck him out looking with a slider... the 2nd time he hit a line drive that never got more than 6 feet off the ground and hit the fence 300 feet away about 6 feet high... needless to say i was thankful that one didn't come back at me... i decided he won that day but i did strike him out... i will always have that anyway... :cool:
 

D-ROCK13

Well-Known Member
I throw that screwball with my hand flipped over and at a faster, flatter rate, it breaks way in on righties hands. The young/baseball kids love the look, and can't lay off, usually fouling out 😂
 

Normy

Well-Known Member
I throw that screwball with my hand flipped over and at a faster, flatter rate, it breaks way in on righties hands. The young/baseball kids love the look, and can't lay off, usually fouling out 😂
It was definitely a good out pitch for me last year. I throw mine high arc since my backspin is typically low arc and short in the zone. Keeps em on their toes 😉
 

blakcherry329

Well-Known Member
My slider is very random. I can't seem to get the right grip. I wish this video had better closeups of the grips.
Backspin sliders don't help in Modified, unless you're Dominican.😁
 

Normy

Well-Known Member
Messed around with the grip and release on the slide piece today. I also "finally" striped a bucket of balls which really helps to see the stability and direction of rotation. Highly recommend doing this when practicing the slider or screwball. It's got a big bender on it now when the wind is blowing in my favor
 

WiLD53

Well-Known Member
My slider is very random. I can't seem to get the right grip. I wish this video had better closeups of the grips.
Backspin sliders don't help in Modified, unless you're Dominican.😁
the grip i use to get a slider in fastpitch is the exact opposite of the grip i use in slowpitch... the leading smooth spot is near your pinky rather than your thumb... if you are using the 2-seam fastball grip then simply change it so your ring finger is on the seam and your index finger is inside the other seam... if you have a bullseye ball simply put the bullseye in the opposite way i do for slowpitch... here are a couple of pics... notice that the leading smooth spot is on the pinky side rather than the thumb side... a bullseye ball will help make sure you have the spin oriented right and that you have the spin going directly through the middle of the smooth spot... in other words, you should see a clean circle when you throw it... :cool:

08 2 SEAM GRIP SMOOTH SPOT.jpg07 2 SEAM GRIP INDEX FINGER.jpg side from what i've said to do for slowpitch...
 

WiLD53

Well-Known Member
Messed around with the grip and release on the slide piece today. I also "finally" striped a bucket of balls which really helps to see the stability and direction of rotation. Highly recommend doing this when practicing the slider or screwball. It's got a big bender on it now when the wind is blowing in my favor
remember, unlike the backspin slider, the forehand slider has the centerline offset... like this... don't draw them directly down the middle... :cool:10 2 SEAM CENTERLINE.jpg11 CROSS SEAM CENTERLINE.jpg
 

blakcherry329

Well-Known Member
Hmmmm interesting.
I throw my "fastball" with my index and middle fingers only. My knuckleball I use three fingers.
So is my middle finger going on the outside of the right seem and my index finger going along the left seem?
Definitely going to work on this on the weekend.
 

D-ROCK13

Well-Known Member
I throw mine with 3 fingers, middle finger being in the midde of "horseshoe" and fingertips on the half circle lace itself. Turn my wrist either direction when a flip depending on break i want
 

WiLD53

Well-Known Member
Hmmmm interesting.
I throw my "fastball" with my index and middle fingers only. My knuckleball I use three fingers.
So is my middle finger going on the outside of the right seem and my index finger going along the left seem?
Definitely going to work on this on the weekend.
since the ball comes off the fingertips, i suggest making sure the tip of your middle finger is on the right seam... put your index finger where it's comfortable... hopefully that will give you the correct orientation for the spin... do you have a bullseye ball yet? it really helps to see what's happening in flight...

here's a reminder of how it should look... you will see the backside bullseye in flight so make sure you have them both... offset it 1 inch from the seam... :cool:BULLSEYE 01A.jpgBULLSEYE 01B.jpg
 

WiLD53

Well-Known Member
I throw mine with 3 fingers, middle finger being in the midde of "horseshoe" and fingertips on the half circle lace itself. Turn my wrist either direction when a flip depending on break i want
sounds good... having your fingertip on the seam seems to be the trick with fastpitch... @blakcherry329 will need to make sure his index finger is on the left seam to throw a screwball...
 

WiLD53

Well-Known Member
I haven't drawn on any softballs, yet, but definitely going to use this pitch this weekend.
let me know how it goes...

i have a friend whose 10 year old daughter is pitching and she had the good fortune to spend some time with rachel garcia in a couple of clinics... not that it has anything to do with this but i just thought it was cool... have you ever heard of IR [internal rotation] it's what she uses... here's a slow-motion gif that shows it... :cool:
 

blakcherry329

Well-Known Member
That motion is waaaaaay above my pay grade. 😁
With a straight bowling motion it's hard to get that type of rotation on the ball. I never learned the windmill or sling motion.
 
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