Other Thoughts on this Infield Fly?

TexasTransplant

Addicted to Softballfans
Any thoughts on this Infield Fly call?

Bases loaded, no outs. Batter hits a high pop-up in the direction of 2nd base.

Umpire calls "Infield Fly" loud enough that I can hear it clearly in left field.

The ball lands 20-30 feet behind the second baseman and not near any other infielder. This is 70+ senior ball; virtually no one at this level makes this play "with normal effort." It clearly shouldn't be an infield fly.

Base runners all advance and the batter remains at 1B. Umpire says "I rescinded my call when I saw how deep the ball was hit."

It was a meaningless game in a pretty meaningless tournament and didn't effect the outcome but what should have happened here?
 

ureout

The Veteran
yes you live with the call....and what makes the call even worse is that in SSUSA you can make the IF call after the play is over...
 

BretMan

Addicted to Softballfans
These can be hard to go back and fix. But this one seems easy.

Would a reversal of the infield fly call put either team in jeopardy? That is:

- Did the runners advance when they would not have otherwise? No. If they really thought it was an infield fly then they didn't have to advance. The fact that they did means that they probably would have been safe even if it wasn't an infield fly.

- Did the defense change their play, or which runner(s) they played upon, based on the infield fly call? Apparently not, since everybody advanced and was safe anyway.

- Was the result of the play exactly the same as it would have been if the infield fly wasn't called? Yes, it sounds like it was.

I'm not recommending that umpires routinely change their calls. If you do that too often it just makes you look like you don't know what you're doing and undermines your credibility.

But the rules do allow an umpire to reverse his call. If they do, then they have to decide were to place runners affected by the reversal. This one seems like a no-brainer, because there would be NO adjustment to make (other than the batter-runner being safe at first base).

If the infield fly shouldn't have been called in the first place, and calling it had no effect on the play, then why not change it to get the call RIGHT.
 

ureout

The Veteran
These can be hard to go back and fix. But this one seems easy.

Would a reversal of the infield fly call put either team in jeopardy? That is:

- Did the runners advance when they would not have otherwise? No. If they really thought it was an infield fly then they didn't have to advance. The fact that they did means that they probably would have been safe even if it wasn't an infield fly.

- Did the defense change their play, or which runner(s) they played upon, based on the infield fly call? Apparently not, since everybody advanced and was safe anyway.

- Was the result of the play exactly the same as it would have been if the infield fly wasn't called? Yes, it sounds like it was.

I'm not recommending that umpires routinely change their calls. If you do that too often it just makes you look like you don't know what you're doing and undermines your credibility.

But the rules do allow an umpire to reverse his call. If they do, then they have to decide were to place runners affected by the reversal. This one seems like a no-brainer, because there would be NO adjustment to make (other than the batter-runner being safe at first base).

If the infield fly shouldn't have been called in the first place, and calling it had no effect on the play, then why not change it to get the call RIGHT.


Bretman...actually I think that would cause more problems....I agree with you that you should try to get the call right....but I don't think once it's called that you should take it back....it's called umpire error, similar to calling a foul ball to soon and have the OF and base runners stop and then have it come back in fair....I actually made this mistake several years ago at a tournament in Fla. I thought there were runners on 1st and 2nd with 1 out, I even signaled my partner for possible IF situation after ball was hit and infielder was camped under it I called IF batter out...as I was finishing the call I realized there was no runner on 2nd, but was bailed out because the SS caught the ball....I wrote an e-mail to the state UIC (ASA) and he told me once you make the call you live with it and learn from it....if you know of any casebook info please share...
 

BretMan

Addicted to Softballfans
Bretman...actually I think that would cause more problems....I agree with you that you should try to get the call right....but I don't think once it's called that you should take it back....it's called umpire error, similar to calling a foul ball to soon and have the OF and base runners stop and then have it come back in fair....I actually made this mistake several years ago at a tournament in Fla. I thought there were runners on 1st and 2nd with 1 out, I even signaled my partner for possible IF situation after ball was hit and infielder was camped under it I called IF batter out...as I was finishing the call I realized there was no runner on 2nd, but was bailed out because the SS caught the ball....I wrote an e-mail to the state UIC (ASA) and he told me once you make the call you live with it and learn from it....if you know of any casebook info please share...

Sure, on a ball you call foul where everybody stops running, you may have to eat that one. But on the play in the first post, apparently nobody "stopped playing" and apparently the infield fly call had no effect on the players. Easy to fix to make it right.

On the infield fly in your Florida tournament...if you enforced the infield fly with only first base occupied, then that would be a 100% protestable ruling, and a 100% winable protest, since it is an obvious misinterpretation of the rule, not an error in judgment.

Changing a call can be ugly, but having a protest filed against your call and having the call reversed that way is even uglier! The Florida state UIC's opinion aside, I think that you have to fix that one.
 

BretMan

Addicted to Softballfans
ASA Case Play:

With no outs and R1 on 3B, B2 hits a high fly in the infield above F4's head. The base umpire erroneously calls "infield fly, batter is out". F4 subsequently drops the ball and R1 scores. B2 (a) ends up at 2B, or; (b) goes tto the dugout because the umpire called B2 out.

RULING: The run scores. In (a) leave B2 at 2B on the correctable error; however, in (b) the plate umpire should rectify the situation by placing B2 on 1B.
 

ureout

The Veteran
Sure, on a ball you call foul where everybody stops running, you may have to eat that one. But on the play in the first post, apparently nobody "stopped playing" and apparently the infield fly call had no effect on the players. Easy to fix to make it right.

On the infield fly in your Florida tournament...if you enforced the infield fly with only first base occupied, then that would be a 100% protestable ruling, and a 100% winable protest, since it is an obvious misinterpretation of the rule, not an error in judgment.

Changing a call can be ugly, but having a protest filed against your call and having the call reversed that way is even uglier! The Florida state UIC's opinion aside, I think that you have to fix that one.


well I guess we'll agree to disagree... and as far as the Fla. tour it wasn't a misinterpretaion...I knew and understood the rule.... I just made a mistake calling it incorrectly...and once I called it the SS luckily bailed me out by catching it... and if the SS had just let the ball fall to the ground and there was a protest the UIC or TD would come back to me for an explanation and in my judgement it was a pop up that could be caught with normal effort and therefore batter would be out....same result but I don't believe the protest would be upheld
 

ureout

The Veteran
ASA Case Play:

With no outs and R1 on 3B, B2 hits a high fly in the infield above F4's head. The base umpire erroneously calls "infield fly, batter is out". F4 subsequently drops the ball and R1 scores. B2 (a) ends up at 2B, or; (b) goes tto the dugout because the umpire called B2 out.

RULING: The run scores. In (a) leave B2 at 2B on the correctable error; however, in (b) the plate umpire should rectify the situation by placing B2 on 1B.


Bretman...ok thx :thumb:
 

TexasTransplant

Addicted to Softballfans
These can be hard to go back and fix. But this one seems easy.

Would a reversal of the infield fly call put either team in jeopardy? That is:

- Did the runners advance when they would not have otherwise? No. If they really thought it was an infield fly then they didn't have to advance. The fact that they did means that they probably would have been safe even if it wasn't an infield fly.

- Did the defense change their play, or which runner(s) they played upon, based on the infield fly call? Apparently not, since everybody advanced and was safe anyway.

- Was the result of the play exactly the same as it would have been if the infield fly wasn't called? Yes, it sounds like it was.

I'm not recommending that umpires routinely change their calls. If you do that too often it just makes you look like you don't know what you're doing and undermines your credibility.

But the rules do allow an umpire to reverse his call. If they do, then they have to decide were to place runners affected by the reversal. This one seems like a no-brainer, because there would be NO adjustment to make (other than the batter-runner being safe at first base).

If the infield fly shouldn't have been called in the first place, and calling it had no effect on the play, then why not change it to get the call RIGHT.

Thanks for the analysis. That's what happened and, as stated above, it had no bearing on the outcome of the game. Even though we were the "victims" of the reversal, it clearly wasn't an infield fly.
 

Sully

Wanna buy jerseys/rings?
well I guess we'll agree to disagree... and as far as the Fla. tour it wasn't a misinterpretaion...I knew and understood the rule.... I just made a mistake calling it incorrectly...and once I called it the SS luckily bailed me out by catching it... and if the SS had just let the ball fall to the ground and there was a protest the UIC or TD would come back to me for an explanation and in my judgement it was a pop up that could be caught with normal effort and therefore batter would be out....same result but I don't believe the protest would be upheld

That's the main reason for a protest. You didn't enforce a rule properly. Not a judgment call, but enforcing a rule. You would have improperly enforced the infield fly rule because you would have ruled a batter out that would probably have been safe if he was running.

The same as if you had a brain fart and called a force out at 2nd, when the runner had to be tagged. I'm sure you know the rule, but you improperly applied it. It doesn't matter how well you know the rule, if you improperly enforce it during the game. "That doesn't count guys, I know the rule."
 

TexasTransplant

Addicted to Softballfans
Did he demonstrate the appropriate signal and make the appropriate verbal declaration for "rescinding the call"?

Nothing I could hear, but I was standing in left field (without my hearing aidshttp://forums.softballfans.com/images/smilies/smile.gif). BTW, what would be the appropriate signal for rescinding the call?
 

irishmafia

Addicted to Softballfans
Nothing I could hear, but I was standing in left field (without my hearing aidshttp://forums.softballfans.com/images/smilies/smile.gif). BTW, what would be the appropriate signal for rescinding the call?

Aahhh......there isn't one because that is not happening
 
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