USSSA Umpire Reneging on a Call

[timyoung]

Situation: Runners on 1st and 2nd. Shallow fly ball hit to left center fielder. It ends up being a bang bang play at third (even for a force out.) The umpire initially calls our runner safe because he thinks that it's a tag play. The other team complains that runner was out because it was a force play. The umpire then changes his call and says the runner was out because he didn't realize that it was a force play. My guys start going nuts at the umpire (it was a close game that decided if we won our league or not.)

Can an umpire change his mind like that and give the explanation that he did after the initial call was made?

 

[44oki]

Why not? He made the correct decision in the end, even though it was against your team.

 

[eddieq]

So, was it a force place (i.e., it hit the ground and the center fielder picked it up and fired to third for the force)? If so, it sounds like the right call was made.

Not sure what the rule in USSSA would be, but in ASA, they have a convenient part of Rule 10 which basically gives the umpires th ability to correct a mistake and make the correct call.

The plate umpire may rectify any situation in which the reversal of an umpire’s
decision or a delayed call by an umpire places a batter-runner, a runner or
the defensive team in jeopardy. This correction is not possible after one pitch
legal or illegal or after the pitcher and all infielders have clearly vacated their
normal fielding positions and have left fair territory on their way to the bench
or dugout area, or after the last play of the game, the umpires have left the
field of play.

 

[NCASAUmp]

So, was it a force place (i.e., it hit the ground and the center fielder picked it up and fired to third for the force)? If so, it sounds like the right call was made.

Not sure what the rule in USSSA would be, but in ASA, they have a convenient part of Rule 10 which basically gives the umpires th ability to correct a mistake and make the correct call.

But from the sounds of it, no one was placed in jeopardy by the reversed call.

He changed his call because he realized he had a brain fart, and no one was adversely affected by his reversal of the call.

Runner's out. Play on.

 

[hookumsnivy]

The nerve of that umpire correcting his call

 

[NCASAUmp]

The nerve of that umpire correcting his call

Yeah, maybe we should call his UIC so we can get his certification revoked.

 

[timyoung]

I guess I was under the assumption that once the call was made he couldn't correct it...

example Jim Joyce...

 

[44oki]

I guess I was under the assumption that once the call was made he couldn't correct it...

example Jim Joyce...

they tried to give him an out when they got together, he wasn't listening....

 

[hookumsnivy]

I find it funny. It happens to you guys and you complain that he fixed his call.
I was catching a game a few years ago and the ump calls the BR out at a play at first (I thought he was safe). After the play, and before the next pitch he realized he screwed up, calls time walks towards the middle of the infield, apologizes and says he made the wrong call, he's safe.
Sure we weren't happy that we lost the out (that we didn't deserve) but we thought it was really cool that he admitted he made a mistake and fixed it. It's rare to see it happen, but when it does you never forget it.

 

[oryansirishpub]

I guess I was under the assumption that once the call was made he couldn't correct it...

example Jim Joyce...

This ain't MLB....and Jim Joyce didn't realize his call was bad until after the game when he saw it on instant replay.....

This thread is just another we lost so I gotta blame someone other than myself.....

 

[NCASAUmp]

I guess I was under the assumption that once the call was made he couldn't correct it...

example Jim Joyce...

He most certainly can. Example: A-Rod.

 

[NCASAUmp]

I find it funny. It happens to you guys and you complain that he fixed his call.
I was catching a game a few years ago and the ump calls the BR out at a play at first (I thought he was safe). After the play, and before the next pitch he realized he screwed up, calls time walks towards the middle of the infield, apologizes and says he made the wrong call, he's safe.
Sure we weren't happy that we lost the out (that we didn't deserve) but we thought it was really cool that he admitted he made a mistake and fixed it. It's rare to see it happen, but when it does you never forget it.

 

[hookumsnivy]

That's great. That should be on the back of the umpiring uniform.

 

[NCASAUmp]

That's great. That should be on the back of the umpiring uniform.

Would that be above or below the "kick me" sign?

 

[oryansirishpub]

Would that be above or below the "kick me" sign?

Below....gotta keep the high priority info at the top

 

[joncon]

Can an umpire change his mind like that and give the explanation that he did after the initial call was made?

He can and he should admit his mistakes and change the call if he feels it's the thing to do.

I rarely see it happen but I alway give the ump props when he does it.

 

[dewey84]

I would give the ump props for making the right call when he relized what happened. I would much rather have an ump change a call when they know they skrewed up, rather than have them make a make up call later in the game like some of them do.

 

[BretMan]

I guess I was under the assumption that once the call was made he couldn't correct it...

example Jim Joyce...

Jimmy Joyce made a judgment call that the runner beat the ball to first. That's not going to be changed.

The umpire in the first post misapplied a playing rule. That can and should be reversed, once the umpire realizes his mistake.

 

[bb666b77]

Yeah, maybe we should call his UIC so we can get his certification revoked.

or the brother of the uncle of the governor of the state.

I guess I was under the assumption that once the call was made he couldn't correct it...

example Jim Joyce...

see below quote

This ain't MLB....and Jim Joyce didn't realize his call was bad until after the game when he saw it on instant replay.....

This thread is just another we lost so I gotta blame someone other than myself.....

Would that be above or below the "kick me" sign?

both

 

[chiefgator]

If he had not changed it, the offensive team could appeal it. DEPENDING on how they worded the appeal. The ump changing his call was basically changing on appeal. It sounds like the offensive coach did it the right way and asked all the right questions in the right way:

Time blue, Why did you call that runner out?
There was no tag.
Sir, did the ball beat him to the bag?
yes it did.
Sir, with a man on 1st and 2nd, that would be a force and no tag was needed.
You are correct Mr Coach... MY TIME...RUNNER AT 3rd is OUT on the FORCE

PLAY BALL!

 

[TimHansen14]

I guess I was under the assumption that once the call was made he couldn't correct it...

example Jim Joyce...

This is different. Jim Joyce had a judgement call. The situation given was not a judgement call but an oops didn't know the situation call. I'd love it if an umpire would admit to his mistakes. Thank you to all umpires who do realize their mistakes and try to make their mistakes right when appropriate.

Same as what BretMan said.

 

[NCASAUmp]

This is different. Jim Joyce had a judgement call. The situation given was not a judgement call but an oops didn't know the situation call. I'd love it if an umpire would admit to his mistakes. Thank you to all umpires who do realize their mistakes and try to make their mistakes right when appropriate.

Same as what BretMan said.

MLB has a different mandate from most slow pitch organizations. In MLB, there's still a mentality of "you live and die by your call." You make the call and you stand by it, or you'll just get run out of town and have zero credibility.

The softball orgs (and ASA is no exception to this) have come to the realization that sometimes, **** happens. You get blocked from seeing the play, or you're in a two-umpire crew (which makes it very difficult to cover and see everything we need), etc. The mandate from on high has been: get the call RIGHT. If you get it right, who's to argue? It's the right call.

 

[Traenok]

I would give the ump props for making the right call when he relized what happened. I would much rather have an ump change a call when they know they skrewed up, rather than have them make a make up call later in the game like some of them do.

I absolutely hate this when I see it happen. Absolutely would rather an ump call time and correct himself then "make it up" later.

We had an ump on Wednesday who did this.

 

[NCASAUmp]

I absolutely hate this when I see it happen. Absolutely would rather an ump call time and correct himself then "make it up" later.

We had an ump on Wednesday who did this.

Did he say that's what he was doing?

 

[JJR12]

Hahahaha.. that's great... Reminds me of something my Dad did when he was umpiring High School Baseball.....

He had this one guy just jawing from the very beginning about balls and strikes... So in the middle of the 4th inning my Dad went up into the stands and sat right next to this guy. You can imagine the look on his face when a large guy comes up and sits next to him... Anyway, my Dad says to the guy... "Your right, the view of the strike zone is much better way up here than it is down there. You wouldn't mind if I called the game this half inning from here would you??" The guy was speechless, and didn't say a word the rest of the game.

 

[JJR12]

MLB has a different mandate from most slow pitch organizations. In MLB, there's still a mentality of "you live and die by your call." You make the call and you stand by it, or you'll just get run out of town and have zero credibility.

The softball orgs (and ASA is no exception to this) have come to the realization that sometimes, **** happens. You get blocked from seeing the play, or you're in a two-umpire crew (which makes it very difficult to cover and see everything we need), etc. The mandate from on high has been: get the call RIGHT. If you get it right, who's to argue? It's the right call.

I have to disagree to a certain extent when it comes tot he MLB...

Even in the MLB when a call comes down based on the RULES of the game, then they will make the change. It is when it is a Judgment call that you rarely see them make a change in the call...

ALL umpires regardless of the situation should make the change if they made a mistake in enforcing the RULES of the game... Now when it's a Judgment call that is a different story... You can't argue a judgment call like you can argue a call on the rules...

In the OP's post, the umpire made a bad call based on the RULES... He assumed a tag was needed... So he still saw the entire play and made the call based on a mistake... No big deal... He made the correct call in the end. WE all have much more respect for umpires that will stand up and make the correct call after making a mistake...

 

[NCASAUmp]

I have to disagree to a certain extent when it comes tot he MLB...

Even in the MLB when a call comes down based on the RULES of the game, then they will make the change. It is when it is a Judgment call that you rarely see them make a change in the call...

ALL umpires regardless of the situation should make the change if they made a mistake in enforcing the RULES of the game... Now when it's a Judgment call that is a different story... You can't argue a judgment call like you can argue a call on the rules...

In the OP's post, the umpire made a bad call based on the RULES... He assumed a tag was needed... So he still saw the entire play and made the call based on a mistake... No big deal... He made the correct call in the end. WE all have much more respect for umpires that will stand up and make the correct call after making a mistake...

Yes, and this is what I'm referring to. You'll see the umpires confer with each other on rule interpretations, but it's VERY rare to see them talk over a judgment call.

And granted, even softball umpires will often decide NOT to confer with their colleagues IF the call is PURELY a judgment call. However, if we get jammed into a truly bad angle, we are more likely to talk with our partners.

 

[neptunefix]

Situation: Runners on 1st and 2nd. Shallow fly ball hit to left center fielder. It ends up being a bang bang play at third (even for a force out.) The umpire initially calls our runner safe because he thinks that it's a tag play. The other team complains that runner was out because it was a force play. The umpire then changes his call and says the runner was out because he didn't realize that it was a force play. My guys start going nuts at the umpire (it was a close game that decided if we won our league or not.)

Can an umpire change his mind like that and give the explanation that he did after the initial call was made?

If the umpire changed his call in order to make the correct call, then why would you be upset? You want to win due to a missed call? People give umpires too much grief.

 

[USSSA]

Situation: Runners on 1st and 2nd. Shallow fly ball hit to left center fielder. It ends up being a bang bang play at third (even for a force out.) The umpire initially calls our runner safe because he thinks that it's a tag play. The other team complains that runner was out because it was a force play. The umpire then changes his call and says the runner was out because he didn't realize that it was a force play. My guys start going nuts at the umpire (it was a close game that decided if we won our league or not.)

Can an umpire change his mind like that and give the explanation that he did after the initial call was made?

dont you want the ump to make the correct call? nothing wrong with changing your mind to make the correct call

 

[Chubby_43]

This is different. Jim Joyce had a judgement call. The situation given was not a judgement call but an oops didn't know the situation call. I'd love it if an umpire would admit to his mistakes. Thank you to all umpires who do realize their mistakes and try to make their mistakes right when appropriate.

Same as what BretMan said.

If I was the Offical Score keeper I would have ruled the play an ERROR(on Joyce).. to the 2nd baseman and life goes on.. He got a No-hitter instead.. Why didn't he do that??? WTF