ASA USA Slow Pitch - What's the Call?

DeputyUICHousto

Addicted to Softballfans
R1 on 3rd base, R2 on 1st base with 1 out. Left-handed batter up and R3 is playing even with the bag. B4 hits a groundball to the shortstop. Both runners advance. R2 is obstructed by F3 while advancing to 2B. F6 throws to F4 for a force out on R2 at 2B. F4 throws to F3 in an attempt for a double play. F4's throw goes in the dugout. R1 scores. Where would you place the runners and how many outs would you have?
 

ureout

The Veteran
I would have OBS on F3 and place R2 on 2nd-- then I would give awards on the thrown ball that went into the dugout--
I'm assuming that the B/R had not obtained 1b so I would award B/R 2nd and move R2 to 3rd and R1 scores and 1 out-- if B/R had already passed 1b before the overthrow then it would be 2 bases from the last legally obtained base.. so 3b for B/R and R2 scores still 1out
 

irishmafia

Addicted to Softballfans
R1 on 3rd base, R2 on 1st base with 1 out. Left-handed batter up and F3 is playing even with the bag. B4 hits a groundball to the shortstop. Both runners advance. R2 is obstructed by F3 while advancing to 2B. F6 throws to F4 for a force out on R2 at 2B.

Stop right there. Dead ball. Anything after this is irrelevant.

F4 throws to F3 in an attempt for a double play. F4's throw goes in the dugout. R1 scores. Where would you place the runners and how many outs would you have?

R2 on 2B, R3 on 1B. Would have to see play to determine whether to allow R1 score or return to 3B
 

ureout

The Veteran
Stop right there. Dead ball. Anything after this is irrelevant.

R2 on 2B, R3 on 1B. Would have to see play to determine whether to allow R1 score or return to 3B


irish.. yes good catch.. dead ball because the runner that was OBS was called out at 2nd
 

watsonrg

New Member
"Stop right there. Dead ball. Anything after this is irrelevant."

Disagree. This is a DELAYED dead ball. Play continues until time is called.

"irish.. yes good catch.. dead ball because the runner that was OBS was called out at 2nd"

OP did not write the runner going to second was called out. He wrote, " F6 throws to F4 for a force out on R2 at 2B." The delayed dead ball call would protect that runner at least to second base.

Ureout had the correct call in the first reply.
 

Sully

Wanna buy jerseys/rings?
He's right. "When obstruction occurs a delayed dead ball is ruled." What's the basis for the dead ball and why is the throw out of play irrelevant?
 

ureout

The Veteran
what is tricky is the part where the rule says

If the obstructed runner is put out prior to reaching the base which would have been reached had there not been obstruction,
EFFECT: A dead ball is called and the obstructed runner and all other runners shall be awarded the base or bases which would have been reached, in the umpire’s judgment, had there not been obstruction.

in the OP it says SS caught the ball and threw to 2nd, 99% of the time the runner would not have made it to 2B safely even if there were no OBS

so I would say it would be a delayed dead ball and will change my answer to 2outs because runner on 1st I would call out because in my judgement he would not have been safe -- and B/R to 2B runner on 3B has scored
 

AH23

Addicted to Softballfans
what is tricky is the part where the rule says

If the obstructed runner is put out prior to reaching the base which would have been reached had there not been obstruction,
EFFECT: A dead ball is called and the obstructed runner and all other runners shall be awarded the base or bases which would have been reached, in the umpire’s judgment, had there not been obstruction.

in the OP it says SS caught the ball and threw to 2nd, 99% of the time the runner would not have made it to 2B safely even if there were no OBS

so I would say it would be a delayed dead ball and will change my answer to 2outs because runner on 1st I would call out because in my judgement he would not have been safe -- and B/R to 2B runner on 3B has scored

Obstructed runner CANNOT be called out between the bases where the OBS occures. Don't call the runner that started at 1B out..... whether they would have made it to second or not is irrelevant because they were the runner that was OBS.
 

irishmafia

Addicted to Softballfans
Obstructed runner CANNOT be called out between the bases where the OBS occures. Don't call the runner that started at 1B out..... whether they would have made it to second or not is irrelevant because they were the runner that was OBS.

what is tricky is the part where the rule says

If the obstructed runner is put out prior to reaching the base which would have been reached had there not been obstruction,
EFFECT: A dead ball is called and the obstructed runner and all other runners shall be awarded the base or bases which would have been reached, in the umpire’s judgment, had there not been obstruction.

in the OP it says SS caught the ball and threw to 2nd, 99% of the time the runner would not have made it to 2B safely even if there were no OBS

so I would say it would be a delayed dead ball and will change my answer to 2outs because runner on 1st I would call out because in my judgement he would not have been safe -- and B/R to 2B runner on 3B has scored

Cannot happen. Because it is a delayed dead ball, the runner can still be "put out" by the defense and when that happens, the play immediately becomes dead. No other action may occur after that point. That is when the umpire makes his/her ruling on the OBS runner which, by rule, cannot be ruled out except under certain conditions, none of which is included in this play.
 

NCASAUmp

Un-Retired
^^^^
This.

We first have a delayed dead ball on the obstruction. Once the runner was put out, the play is immediately dead, and nothing else can happen after this. R2 is awarded 2B, B4 is awarded 1B, and R1 is either put back on 3B or awarded home, depending on what I saw.
 

ureout

The Veteran
irish & ncasa ok i get the delayed dead ball and once runner is called out it goes to dead ball--

but can you explain why the (OBS runner which, by rule, cannot be ruled out except under certain conditions, none of which is included in this play.) if the ball was hit to the SS and he immediately threw to 2B for the out wouldn't that meet the conditions to be called out, or are you saying that in the OP you think the runner would have had a chance to attain 2b safely ??

EFFECT: A dead ball is called and the obstructed runner and all other runners shall be awarded the base or bases which would have been reached, in the umpire’s judgment, had there not been obstruction.
 

NCASAUmp

Un-Retired
Look up a little higher at 8-5-B-1. You'll see your answer there.

The runner was obstructed between 1B and 2B, and by rule, they can not be put out between those two bases. Once the defense got the force out at 2B on the obstructed runner, the play immediately became dead.
 

ureout

The Veteran
ncasa-- i read it and posted-- then just below it read #2 it says base or bases which would have been reached, in the umpire’s judgment, had there not been obstruction--- what if the umpire's judgement was that since the ball was caught and thrown immediately to 2B the runner would not have reached 2B safely if there was no OBS??

Section 5. RUNNERS ARE ENTITLED TO ADVANCE WITHOUT LIABILITY TO BE PUT OUT.

B. When a fielder not in possession of the ball or not in the act of fielding a batted ball, obstructs the progress of a runner or batter-runner.
EFFECT: When obstruction occurs a delayed dead ball is ruled.

2. If the obstructed runner is put out prior to reaching the base which would have been reached had there not been obstruction,
EFFECT: A dead ball is called and the obstructed runner and all other runners shall be awarded the base or bases which would have been reached, in the umpire’s judgment, had there not been obstruction.
 

NCASAUmp

Un-Retired
#2 does not supersede #1. By rule 8-5-B-1, you can not call the runner out between 1B and 2B. Therefore, the play becomes dead, the batter-runner gets 1B, and the only place you can put R2 is 2B.
 

watsonrg

New Member
2. If the obstructed runner is put out prior to reaching the base which would have been reached had there not been obstruction,
EFFECT: A dead ball is called and the obstructed runner and all other runners shall be awarded the base or bases which would have been reached, in the umpire’s judgment, had there not been obstruction.

How can the obstructed runner be put out since:

8-5-B-1. You'll see your answer there.

The runner was obstructed between 1B and 2B, and by rule, they can not be put out between those two bases.

I reiterate, the runner going to second is safe by rule so the ball remain live.
 

Sully

Wanna buy jerseys/rings?
The rule states that the runner can not be put out, so you signal delayed dead ball to see if the runner gets to the base safely first, if they do the play continues. If they do not, and the fielder gets what would have been an out, because the rule says they cannot be put out, you have to declare a dead ball to enforce the rule.
 

jonsey

Member
how do you award the runner a base that they wouldn't have ever made? the rule says the base he would have reached, well he wouldn't have reached 2b even if the 1b didn't obs him

so you are saying once obs is called umpire judgement is no longer taken into account as to if a runner could have reached the base safely?

as in this play, b/r hits the ball to short lf, the lf charges the ball and fires it back in to 2b, as the b/r is rounding 1st he bumps into 1baseman about 1 step from the bag, upon seeing the obs call he continues on toward 2b where f4 is standing waiting for him and tags him out now do you award the runner 2b even though he had no chance at making it safely
 

Sully

Wanna buy jerseys/rings?
Because the rule says with a few minor exceptions, an obstructed runner can NOT be put out between those two bases. The 1B got caught where he wasnt supposed to be. His bad.
The awarding him the base he would have reached is if he would have made it farther in the umpires judgment.
 

irishmafia

Addicted to Softballfans
2. If the obstructed runner is put out prior to reaching the base which would have been reached had there not been obstruction,
EFFECT: A dead ball is called and the obstructed runner and all other runners shall be awarded the base or bases which would have been reached, in the umpire’s judgment, had there not been obstruction.

How can the obstructed runner be put out since:

8-5-B-1. You'll see your answer there.

The runner was obstructed between 1B and 2B, and by rule, they can not be put out between those two bases.

I reiterate, the runner going to second is safe by rule so the ball remain live.

You are wrong. Try reading the whole rule and RS
 
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Sully

Wanna buy jerseys/rings?
then when would you use #2
#2 would be used if the batter-runner rounds first and the 1st baseman runs into him and knocks him down. The ball is gapped between left and left center. By the time he gets up he gets to second base. #1 says he is protected between 1st and 2nd.
#2 says the umpire can place that runner on 3rd base if he felt he would have made it to 3rd without the obstruction. That's when you use #2.
If there is obstruction, with a few exceptions (one of which is NOT whether the umpires judges the runner would have been out anyway), that runner can NOT be out between 1st and 2nd period. Doesn't matter if he would have made it or not. The 1B was somewhere he wasn't supposed to be (in the runner's way when there was no play at 1st base). The same way a runner is required to deviate from their base path if it would interfere with a fielder fielding a ball, that fielder is required to be out of the way so he doesn't obstruct the runner doing what he is supposed to do. If the 1B wasn't in the way, then the runner would have stopped at 1st or been out at 2nd. If his obstruction stopped the runner from getting to a base past 2nd base (the protected base), then the umpire can award him the base he judges he would have reached.
We are making this way harder than it has to be.
 

jonsey

Member
sorry I just wan't to make sure on this--- so if the b/r hits a ball to 3b and it's booted and rolls a few feet into the of, the b/r seeing that the ball got booted rounds 1b a couple steps as if he is going to 2b and bumps into 1b --- now knowing he has been obs he should just continue to 2b and if he's tagged out he will be awarded 2b I always thought that he would be protected to 2nd if the umpire judged he could have made it, or protected going back to 1b--- another question about this , a runner rounds 2b and bumps into ss does he automatically get 3rd or is this a judgement?
 

Sully

Wanna buy jerseys/rings?
Obstruction by definition, is "The act of a defensive team member who B) impedes the progress of the runner or batter-runner who is legally running the bases unless the fielder is:
1. in possession of the ball
2. in the act of fielding a batted ball. NOTE: Contact is not necessary to impede the progress of the batter-runner or a runner.
So in the case of the shortstop, if he's not in possession of the ball or in the act of fielding a batted ball, then yes he is obstructing and the runner is protected to 3B.
The whole "he barely bumped him or wouldn't have made it any way" arguments don't work. The fielder is in the way not doing what he is supposed to be doing, fielding the ball. If he impedes the runner, his team will be penalized. Now if it's a ground ball to SS, and the fielder is charging the ball, it is the runners job to avoid that fielder so he doesn't interfere because if he does, his team will be penalized.
As for 1B on the play bobbled at 3B, it's not usually the 1B in the way on the bag waiting for a throw, because the runner would have to turn 90 degrees and should be going to the orange bag. It's usually they start running to the bag to cover, see the 3B bobble the ball and stop and watch the play in the way. Same thing with the base hit to LF where he's in the way of the runner rounding. He's probably stopped in the way. If the runner rounded 1st and took a couple of steps toward 2nd base when he ran into the 1B, the 1B obviously didn't have a play on at 1st, why is he still in the way?
 

AH23

Addicted to Softballfans
ncasa-- i read it and posted-- then just below it read #2 it says base or bases which would have been reached, in the umpire’s judgment, had there not been obstruction--- what if the umpire's judgement was that since the ball was caught and thrown immediately to 2B the runner would not have reached 2B safely if there was no OBS??

Section 5. RUNNERS ARE ENTITLED TO ADVANCE WITHOUT LIABILITY TO BE PUT OUT.

B. When a fielder not in possession of the ball or not in the act of fielding a batted ball, obstructs the progress of a runner or batter-runner.
EFFECT: When obstruction occurs a delayed dead ball is ruled.

2. If the obstructed runner is put out prior to reaching the base which would have been reached had there not been obstruction,
EFFECT: A dead ball is called and the obstructed runner and all other runners shall be awarded the base or bases which would have been reached, in the umpire’s judgment, had there not been obstruction.

Section 5. Read the title of the section, the rules that follow are ALL the WITHOUT THE LIABILITY TO BE PUT OUT.

There will be exceptions but they will be listed. Don't add your own stuff to the rules.
 

irishmafia

Addicted to Softballfans
sorry I just wan't to make sure on this--- so if the b/r hits a ball to 3b and it's booted and rolls a few feet into the of, the b/r seeing that the ball got booted rounds 1b a couple steps as if he is going to 2b and bumps into 1b --- now knowing he has been obs he should just continue to 2b and if he's tagged out he will be awarded 2b I always thought that he would be protected to 2nd if the umpire judged he could have made it, or protected going back to 1b--- another question about this , a runner rounds 2b and bumps into ss does he automatically get 3rd or is this a judgement?

No, the only "automatic" award for OBS would be 1B when a BR is OBS. Otherwise, an OBS runner is awarded the base that, in the umpire's judgement, s/he would have attained safely had the OBS not occurred. It is quite possible the award could be the base the OBS runner had last touched safely. There is nothing stating the award must be forward, it can be the base behind the place where the OBS occurred.
 

AH23

Addicted to Softballfans
Obstruction by definition, is "The act of a defensive team member who B) impedes the progress of the runner or batter-runner who is legally running the bases unless the fielder is:
1. in possession of the ball
2. in the act of fielding a batted ball. NOTE: Contact is not necessary to impede the progress of the batter-runner or a runner.
So in the case of the shortstop, if he's not in possession of the ball or in the act of fielding a batted ball, then yes he is obstructing and the runner is protected to 3B.
The whole "he barely bumped him or wouldn't have made it any way" arguments don't work. The fielder is in the way not doing what he is supposed to be doing, fielding the ball. If he impedes the runner, his team will be penalized. Now if it's a ground ball to SS, and the fielder is charging the ball, it is the runners job to avoid that fielder so he doesn't interfere because if he does, his team will be penalized.
As for 1B on the play bobbled at 3B, it's not usually the 1B in the way on the bag waiting for a throw, because the runner would have to turn 90 degrees and should be going to the orange bag. It's usually they start running to the bag to cover, see the 3B bobble the ball and stop and watch the play in the way. Same thing with the base hit to LF where he's in the way of the runner rounding. He's probably stopped in the way. If the runner rounded 1st and took a couple of steps toward 2nd base when he ran into the 1B, the 1B obviously didn't have a play on at 1st, why is he still in the way?

for your #2 it's making the INITIAL play on a batted ball that the fielder/defense is protected. Batted ball hits off of the third baseman's leg and the SS comes over to make the play and gets in the runners way while fielding (not in possession) the ball it is OBS.
 
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