USSSA MWS finals.

rmp0012002

Addicted to Softballfans
Runners on 1st and 3rd with one out. Batter flies out to right but the runner at 1st left on the hit and gets doubled off first. The runner at third tagged up and scored prior to the force at 1st, does the run still count?
 

EAJuggalo

Addicted to Softballfans
The call was correct. Run counts, it is a timing play on the appeal same as a tag play. Once the batter-runner is retired you can't have a force out anymore. Here is the actual rule, 8.5.T.Effect.5: 5.
On any appealed play not a force out, all runners in advance of runner being appealed out who touch home plate legally before actual physical completion of the THIRD APPEALED OUT in any inning, shall be counted. Succeeding runners cannot score.
I did not see the play, was this in the DS-Resmondo game, the first Smash-It-Resmondo game or the second?
 

rmp0012002

Addicted to Softballfans
I tried to re-title the post but it wouldn’t let me. This was Resmondo / Dan Smith in the losers bracket final.
 

EAJuggalo

Addicted to Softballfans
I've now seen it. The call was correct, but I don't know how many people in the stadium knew it. Watching the USSSA Live feed, I'm 90% sure the PU didn't know that the run counted. I really want to know who finally said something. Maybe I'll find out when I get there in three days.

For those that don't know, here is the play:
The first part, the second is a strike call that I can't believe he made. Argen Dodds should be suspended to start next year for making contact with an official.
 

TWmccoy

3DX Connoisseur
The call was correct. Run counts, it is a timing play on the appeal same as a tag play. Once the batter-runner is retired you can't have a force out anymore. Here is the actual rule, 8.5.T.Effect.5: 5. I did not see the play, was this in the DS-Resmondo game, the first Smash-It-Resmondo game or the second?

I saw the play happen. After much hemming and hawing it appeared they got it right. Lots of initial butthurt and arguing from both sides.

Tragically stupid/inept baserunning.
 

jbo911

Super Moderator
Staff member
I know this was the right call, but what i want to know is what happens if they don't appeal by tagging first or from the mound after? Is this like that hs play that went viral where the baserunner never touched home and the ump just sat there until the defense figured it out and touched the player celebrating?
 

EAJuggalo

Addicted to Softballfans
I know this was the right call, but what i want to know is what happens if they don't appeal by tagging first or from the mound after? Is this like that hs play that went viral where the baserunner never touched home and the ump just sat there until the defense figured it out and touched the player celebrating?
The runner would have been allowed to stay wherever he was. Had Nic run to third, DS not appealed and Dirty thrown a pitch, at that point all previous action is deemed to be legal and Nic would have stayed at 3B. Same as if a runner had left a split second early, if it's not appealed properly, it's legal.
Tragically stupid/inept baserunning.
I have no idea what could possibly have been going through Nic's mind on that play. All he has to do is sit on 1B and see what the next batter can do.
 

ilyk2win

Addicted to Softballfans
I was there watching this game up close. Everybody around me was arguing with me when I immediately said the game should be tied. Of course the "It's a force out" was their stance. I was glad to see the umpires come together to get it right, but it looked more like they called Stro in for the official call, which would indicate there was at least one of them who didn't agree.
 

EAJuggalo

Addicted to Softballfans
I was there watching this game up close. Everybody around me was arguing with me when I immediately said the game should be tied. Of course the "It's a force out" was their stance. I was glad to see the umpires come together to get it right, but it looked more like they called Stro in for the official call, which would indicate there was at least one of them who didn't agree.
Watching the feed on the stream, it looks like Stro decided to come in to try and mollify Dan Smith. Now that I've watched it a few times, you can hear, who I think is the 1st base umpire, say the run counts almost immediately. The five guys on the field came together and neither the National Umpire in Chief, Slim, nor the Director of Officials, Dave came out on the field. That tells me that there was no protest and the plate umpire didn't feel he needed an opinion from higher up. The feed shows Stro talking to Slim next to the Resmondo dugout, which is also where the door is to the Umpires Locker Room. Two of the umpires who worked the Championship Game were there watching as well. Officially, Stro should have had absolutely nothing to do with it. But I can understand him wanting to come out and calm down Dan Smith.
 

ilyk2win

Addicted to Softballfans
Makes sense!

Wegman almost blew it though. He was too busy yelling at Santana to go back and almost forgot to score before the live ball appeal. He was jumping up and down half way to home and then walked across the plate just in time. No urgency to score the run that tied the game.
 
Last edited:
The runner would have been allowed to stay wherever he was. Had Nic run to third, DS not appealed and Dirty thrown a pitch, at that point all previous action is deemed to be legal and Nic would have stayed at 3B. Same as if a runner had left a split second early, if it's not appealed properly, it's legal.
I have no idea what could possibly have been going through Nic's mind on that play. All he has to do is sit on 1B and see what the next batter can do.

Highlighted and underlined in your post above, USSSA Rule 8 Baserunning, Sec 5, para A and effect 5.A both state that a runner leaving a base prior to a batted ball results in: No pitch, ball is dead, runner is out. Isn't this an instantaneous call by the umpire and not an appeal. Same rule is in all association rulebooks, different sections and paragraphs but same content.
 

EAJuggalo

Addicted to Softballfans
Highlighted and underlined in your post above, USSSA Rule 8 Baserunning, Sec 5, para A and effect 5.A both state that a runner leaving a base prior to a batted ball results in: No pitch, ball is dead, runner is out. Isn't this an instantaneous call by the umpire and not an appeal. Same rule is in all association rulebooks, different sections and paragraphs but same content.
The post you quoted and the situation I was referring to was a runner leaving a split second early on a caught fly ball, not on a pitch.
 

clementeunknown

Addicted to Softballfans
What cost DS the game was when Nelson cut off the throw to first. Then he doesn't swing the bat the next inning. He must really feel like ****.
 

jbo911

Super Moderator
Staff member
What cost DS the game was when Nelson cut off the throw to first. Then he doesn't swing the bat the next inning. He must really feel like ****.
I think you're right, but i wouldn't say anything to him lol. You see the video of their foot race when he was with dan smith before and he turned around and finished running backward? I almost fell down watching it.
 

rmp0012002

Addicted to Softballfans
Runner didn’t leave early, he left on the hit thinking it was too outs and was past second when the ball was caught. Santana’s only option is to touch second and back to first. He was easily doubled off. A runner doesn’t score on a third out force. USSSA doesn’t have the brightest umps but they totally botched this.
 

EAJuggalo

Addicted to Softballfans
Should have been a dead ball out when the batter stepped out of the box to hit the ball.
The batter was within the USSSA rules. Any forward stride is allowed with the lead leg if the the plant leg is even with or behind the front of the plate. That has been the rule in Conference USSSA for 3 years, is in the regular USSSA rule book this year.

Runner didn’t leave early, he left on the hit thinking it was too outs and was past second when the ball was caught. Santana’s only option is to touch second and back to first. He was easily doubled off. A runner doesn’t score on a third out force. USSSA doesn’t have the brightest umps but they totally botched this.
Doubling off a runner on a caught fly ball is not a force out, it is a live ball appeal. There can not be a force out once the batter-runner has been put out.
USSSA Rule 8.5.T.Effect.5:
T. When a base runner leaves his base to advance to the next base before a fly ball has been touched or touches some object, provided that if the fly ball is caught and returned to a fielder and legally held on the base left, or if a fielder touches the runner with the ball before the runner returns to retouch his original base.
EFFECT Sec. 5. S-T. These are appeal plays and the defensive team loses its right to make an appeal on any of these situations if the appeal is not made known before the next legal pitch, or illegal pitcher action, intentional walk or before all fielders have left fair territory.
1. Unless there are two outs, this status of a following runner is not affected by a preceding runner’s violation or failure to comply.
2. If, on appeal, a preceding runner is the THIRD OUT no following runner shall be allowed to score.
3. If, the appealed out is the THIRD OUT, and is the result of a force out, neither the preceding nor following runners shall score.
4. If the appealed out is the third out and is the result of the batter-runner not touching first base, preceding runners shall not score.
5. On any appealed play not a force out, all runners in advance of runner being appealed out who touch home plate legally before actual physical completion of the THIRD APPEALED OUT in any inning, shall be counted. Succeeding runners cannot score.
 

DeputyUICHousto

Addicted to Softballfans
The batter was within the USSSA rules. Any forward stride is allowed with the lead leg if the the plant leg is even with or behind the front of the plate. That has been the rule in Conference USSSA for 3 years, is in the regular USSSA rule book this year.

Doubling off a runner on a caught fly ball is not a force out, it is a live ball appeal. There can not be a force out once the batter-runner has been put out.
USSSA Rule 8.5.T.Effect.5:

Then why have a batter's box?
 
Then why have a batter's box?

Are you in fact an umpire? Clearly you understand why there is a batters box??? EAJ quoted specifically the rule in place for USSSA regarding placement of the trailing foot shall not be forward of even with the front of the plate, any resulting stride by the batter forward is allowed. If hitters were not allowed to assume their stance in "the box" in this manner, they would be short pitched to death. Most Power is generated with swings that are typically in line with chest high, shoulder high, even neck high pitches.
 

DeputyUICHousto

Addicted to Softballfans
To know where to stand DUH!:rolleyes: Besides it's not like stepping out of the box gives batters an advantage. Some people just have a long stride.

The batter's box has been the same size and in the same location for quite some time. Are you saying batter's need the batter's box so they know where to stand?
 

jbo911

Super Moderator
Staff member
This thread is already derailed so why not? There was a video posted last year or the one before of a guy local here that blew up a pitchers face hitting way out in front of the plate. It was even posted on kings. It's absolutely an advantage.

The real problem is the utrip strike zone. This whole high shoulder crap makes it to where you can't move the hitter back at all. Change it back to back shoulder, and call that, and none of this is an issue.
 

jbo911

Super Moderator
Staff member
Are you in fact an umpire? Clearly you understand why there is a batters box??? EAJ quoted specifically the rule in place for USSSA regarding placement of the trailing foot shall not be forward of even with the front of the plate, any resulting stride by the batter forward is allowed. If hitters were not allowed to assume their stance in "the box" in this manner, they would be short pitched to death. Most Power is generated with swings that are typically in line with chest high, shoulder high, even neck high pitches.
I'm not they're to throw pitches they like. If your description is an actual reason why utrip calls their strike zone and does all of this that way that is bull****. It's already freaking underhand. Just get them a tee if that's what utrip wants.
 
I'm not they're to throw pitches they like. If your description is an actual reason why utrip calls their strike zone and does all of this that way that is bull****. It's already freaking underhand. Just get them a tee if that's what utrip wants.

jbo911 you have missed the intent of my post, i was simply agreeing with EAJ with the current rule in USSSA of trailing foot no further forward than even with plate and questioning DeputyUICHouston's incredible statement of "why have a batter's box at all?

i do agree with you about the closeness of the batter to the pitcher and without clear rules, some batters would run up and hit shots even closer to the pitcher. i play Sr softball and having previously been a sanctioned ASA umpire in the 70's, 80's, and 90's i never liked the pitching rules for USSSA with such a direct and easy to hit pitch, not to begin trying to describe the shenanigans and jumping around like a monkey prior to pitching.
 

DeputyUICHousto

Addicted to Softballfans
The batter was within the USSSA rules. Any forward stride is allowed with the lead leg if the the plant leg is even with or behind the front of the plate. That has been the rule in Conference USSSA for 3 years, is in the regular USSSA rule book this year.
USSSA Rule 8.5.T.Effect.5:

This is directly from the 2020 USSSA Rulebook:
ILLEGALLY BATTED BALL is one batted fair or foul by the batter when either one or both of his feet are in contact with the ground COMPLETELY outside the lines of the batter’s box or when his foot is in contact with home plate, or when the ball is batted with an illegal bat.
 
This is directly from the 2020 USSSA Rulebook:
ILLEGALLY BATTED BALL is one batted fair or foul by the batter when either one or both of his feet are in contact with the ground COMPLETELY outside the lines of the batter’s box or when his foot is in contact with home plate, or when the ball is batted with an illegal bat.

Below is the complete rule, with changes, for 2020 USSSA slowpitch softball. Note the bold and underlined sentences.

NOTE: all new rule changes are screened in gray throughout the rule book.

Changes to the 2020 Edition USSSA/GSL Playing Rules
2020 RULE CHANGES
RULE l PLAYING FIELD Sec. 5 page 8: Further, the following batter’s box guidelines will be used:
the batter must set up with his back foot no further forward than home plate. Any forward stride will be
allowed.
The batter will be called out, when either one or both of his feet are in contact with the ground
COMPLETELY outside the lines of the batter’s box in front of home plate or when his foot is in contact
with home plate while contact is made with the ball. Any batter, who runs forward through the batter’s
box to hit a ball will be judged in or out of the box at the time they contact the ball. (SEE: ILLEGALLY
BATTED BALL Rule 3 page 20)
 

jbo911

Super Moderator
Staff member
jbo911 you have missed the intent of my post, i was simply agreeing with EAJ with the current rule in USSSA of trailing foot no further forward than even with plate and questioning DeputyUICHouston's incredible statement of "why have a batter's box at all?

i do agree with you about the closeness of the batter to the pitcher and without clear rules, some batters would run up and hit shots even closer to the pitcher. i play Sr softball and having previously been a sanctioned ASA umpire in the 70's, 80's, and 90's i never liked the pitching rules for USSSA with such a direct and easy to hit pitch, not to begin trying to describe the shenanigans and jumping around like a monkey prior to pitching.
Gotcha.
 

EAJuggalo

Addicted to Softballfans
The batter's box has been the same size and in the same location for quite some time.
The batter's box is a different size based on what association and which bat and ball sport you are playing. The box is a different size in USA based on what size ball you are using. USSSA sanctions three different bat and ball sports, each has a different sized batter's box. I don't actually know what size the boxes are at Space Coast, I would guess they are fastpitch sized though.
That is one of the reasons Doc changed the rule in Conference USSSA and pushed for the rule change in all of USSSA slowpitch. With more complexes going to turf and painted lines, this was seen as a much easier way to determine out of the box and is something more easily checked before the pitch. And no more having to listen to "grown" men argue that that batter was 28 inches in front of the plate when he made contact when he's only allowed 27.5.

The real problem is the utrip strike zone. This whole high shoulder crap makes it to where you can't move the hitter back at all. Change it back to back shoulder, and call that, and none of this is an issue.
You'll have to explain this one to me, calling the strike zone at the highest shoulder makes the strike zone bigger than specifying the back shoulder. I've seen many hitters that have their back shoulder lower than their front shoulder.

The real problem is how many umpires call the USSSA strike zone. The strike zone itself is almost identical to USA, but USA doesn't give the low pitch that just squeaks over the plate, and USSSA doesn't give the heavy pitch that catches the back of the plate at the letters. The amount of hell I catch when I call that strike at Conference is annoying, but I'm still going to call it, only one or two other guys do. There are only a few pitchers who will throw that pitch because of how few umpires call it. Jason Oberlag was on the way to getting that fixed before he left. Dave and Slim talk about it, but Slim still calls it the same way.
 

ilyk2win

Addicted to Softballfans
You'll have to explain this one to me, calling the strike zone at the highest shoulder makes the strike zone bigger than specifying the back shoulder. I've seen many hitters that have their back shoulder lower than their front shoulder.

The real problem is how many umpires call the USSSA strike zone. The strike zone itself is almost identical to USA, but USA doesn't give the low pitch that just squeaks over the plate, and USSSA doesn't give the heavy pitch that catches the back of the plate at the letters. The amount of hell I catch when I call that strike at Conference is annoying, but I'm still going to call it, only one or two other guys do. There are only a few pitchers who will throw that pitch because of how few umpires call it. Jason Oberlag was on the way to getting that fixed before he left. Dave and Slim talk about it, but Slim still calls it the same way.

Often times feels like the thought process is it's easier to piss a pitcher off than the batter, so unless the pitch is nutted, it's a ball.
Regardless of small or big, so long as it is consistent I can manage as a pitcher. But that also means same zone on 3-1 as 1-2 (or 2-0 as 0-1 for USSSA guys :confused:).
Also on pitches that move/curve when an umpire says it landed outside even though it crossed, but then say the inside curve missed bc it didn't cross. :mad::rolleyes:
 
Top