USSSA MWS finals.

jbo911

Super Moderator
Staff member
Often times feels like the thought process is it's easier to piss a pitcher off than the batter, so unless the pitch is nutted, it's a ball.
Regardless of small or big, so long as it is consistent I can manage as a pitcher. But that also means same zone on 3-1 as 1-2 (or 2-0 as 0-1 for USSSA guys :confused:).
Also on pitches that move/curve when an umpire says it landed outside even though it crossed, but then say the inside curve missed bc it didn't cross. :mad::rolleyes:
Because we're not allowed to argue balls and strikes, but batters do all day long.

It's a power dynamic, and the pitchers have none. If a batter does push it far enough to get thrown or, so what? That's 1 or 2 abs max, and the ump doesn't open up the strike zone for the rest of the team in my experience. If you're lucky enough to get one call, the other teams noticing shrinks that strikezone back up like the td is watching.

If a pitcher says one word you're pitching you a tea cup the rest of the game. It's bs.

I guess they figure that ending a guys inning is so much worse than just putting him on base, especially since i can't even complain.
 

jbo911

Super Moderator
Staff member
The batter's box is a different size based on what association and which bat and ball sport you are playing. The box is a different size in USA based on what size ball you are using. USSSA sanctions three different bat and ball sports, each has a different sized batter's box. I don't actually know what size the boxes are at Space Coast, I would guess they are fastpitch sized though.
That is one of the reasons Doc changed the rule in Conference USSSA and pushed for the rule change in all of USSSA slowpitch. With more complexes going to turf and painted lines, this was seen as a much easier way to determine out of the box and is something more easily checked before the pitch. And no more having to listen to "grown" men argue that that batter was 28 inches in front of the plate when he made contact when he's only allowed 27.5.

You'll have to explain this one to me, calling the strike zone at the highest shoulder makes the strike zone bigger than specifying the back shoulder. I've seen many hitters that have their back shoulder lower than their front shoulder.

The real problem is how many umpires call the USSSA strike zone. The strike zone itself is almost identical to USA, but USA doesn't give the low pitch that just squeaks over the plate, and USSSA doesn't give the heavy pitch that catches the back of the plate at the letters. The amount of hell I catch when I call that strike at Conference is annoying, but I'm still going to call it, only one or two other guys do. There are only a few pitchers who will throw that pitch because of how few umpires call it. Jason Oberlag was on the way to getting that fixed before he left. Dave and Slim talk about it, but Slim still calls it the same way.


Let's assume the strike zone is like the rectangle K Zone we see in Baseball.

When you differentiate the highest shoulder, every ump I've ever asked about it assumes the front shoulder is the highest. Let's be real, they're not checking the batter between each pitch to see if they're shifting. Most of the time our umps don't even notice if they change their position in the box at all. Making it back shoulder just makes that easier for the ump.

Back to the point though,with highest shoulder, that rectangle is vertical. With it being the back shoulder it lays back at an angle. The pitch is coming down at the opposite angle, so it opens up the possibilities for me to vary speed, arc, and height much more and pass through that rectangle.

The bottom of both strike zones is cut off by the plate. You actually lose more of the zone there with the laid back, back shoulder zone. You make it up on the back end though. I pitch off the back of the rubber, so it's even more exaggerated for me than someone pitching off the front. It's geometrically possible for me to throw a ball 10' in the middle, passing through that vertical zone, and missing the plate, but just barely. It's like a carnival game at that point, and ridiculous. It may only be possible to the left and right notch as well. The tip might prevent it entirely going right down the middle.

While we're on the subject, if you imagine the strike zone like those K zones on TV, is any part of the ball in that rectangle supposed to be a strike, or does the entirety of the ball have to pass through that zone to be a strike? The reason I link this subject here is because in my 15+ years pitching, it seems the umps err on the side of caution all the way around. They won't call anything that's close to 6' or 10', if they call corners they only call a ball that has maybe 1/4 of it's area outside of that rectangle, and only if it lands in a non-controversial spot.

I really hope UTrip gets their Arc problems under control. This arc is up and down crap they are trying to emphasize is complete junk. I don't care if that's how it's written, then it's written poorly. If I release a ball at 3', then the ball can't cross the batter any higher than 3' to be a strike. That's asinine. I can't attempt to disguise my pitches at all. Can you imagine FP telling a pitcher they can't throw a rise ball for a strike because it doesn't drop? That a sinker is only a strike if you start it at a certain height, even if it crosses through the strike zone? Arc limits are to keep us from skying it and throwing a modified pitch, and their whole arc definition is just making something people have enough trouble understanding, needlessly complicated.
 

EAJuggalo

Addicted to Softballfans
Often times feels like the thought process is it's easier to piss a pitcher off than the batter, so unless the pitch is nutted, it's a ball.
Regardless of small or big, so long as it is consistent I can manage as a pitcher. But that also means same zone on 3-1 as 1-2 (or 2-0 as 0-1 for USSSA guys :confused:).
Also on pitches that move/curve when an umpire says it landed outside even though it crossed, but then say the inside curve missed bc it didn't cross. :mad::rolleyes:
Calling it where it lands is a huge issue. At every level I hear about how that pitch landed too far back or in the other batters box and can't be a strike. What I try and get across to them, and to some of my fellow umpires, is that the only bearing where a pitch lands has on whether a pitch is a strike or not is if it lands on the plate. Many umpires are basically playing mat ball back there and calling pitches based entirely on whether it lands in their imaginary box.

Let's assume the strike zone is like the rectangle K Zone we see in Baseball.

When you differentiate the highest shoulder, every ump I've ever asked about it assumes the front shoulder is the highest. Let's be real, they're not checking the batter between each pitch to see if they're shifting. Most of the time our umps don't even notice if they change their position in the box at all. Making it back shoulder just makes that easier for the ump.

Back to the point though,with highest shoulder, that rectangle is vertical. With it being the back shoulder it lays back at an angle. The pitch is coming down at the opposite angle, so it opens up the possibilities for me to vary speed, arc, and height much more and pass through that rectangle.

The bottom of both strike zones is cut off by the plate. You actually lose more of the zone there with the laid back, back shoulder zone. You make it up on the back end though. I pitch off the back of the rubber, so it's even more exaggerated for me than someone pitching off the front. It's geometrically possible for me to throw a ball 10' in the middle, passing through that vertical zone, and missing the plate, but just barely. It's like a carnival game at that point, and ridiculous. It may only be possible to the left and right notch as well. The tip might prevent it entirely going right down the middle.

While we're on the subject, if you imagine the strike zone like those K zones on TV, is any part of the ball in that rectangle supposed to be a strike, or does the entirety of the ball have to pass through that zone to be a strike? The reason I link this subject here is because in my 15+ years pitching, it seems the umps err on the side of caution all the way around. They won't call anything that's close to 6' or 10', if they call corners they only call a ball that has maybe 1/4 of it's area outside of that rectangle, and only if it lands in a non-controversial spot.

I really hope UTrip gets their Arc problems under control. This arc is up and down crap they are trying to emphasize is complete junk. I don't care if that's how it's written, then it's written poorly. If I release a ball at 3', then the ball can't cross the batter any higher than 3' to be a strike. That's asinine. I can't attempt to disguise my pitches at all. Can you imagine FP telling a pitcher they can't throw a rise ball for a strike because it doesn't drop? That a sinker is only a strike if you start it at a certain height, even if it crosses through the strike zone? Arc limits are to keep us from skying it and throwing a modified pitch, and their whole arc definition is just making something people have enough trouble understanding, needlessly complicated.
The strike zone isn't a 2D rectangle that the ball has to go through to be a strike. It's a 3d polygon that if the ball touches any part of should be a strike. You're talking about taking a line from the front knee to the back shoulder, it should be taking five points at each corner of the plate, putting a cap on it at the highest shoulder and a floor on it at the height of the front knee. By the rules, if a stitch of the softball is below the highest shoulder when the ball is over the back point of the plate, then it should be a strike. No one calls it that way, but they are supposed to. I give a much heavier zone that most USSSA umpires, but I don't give that one.
Any part of the ball that touches any part of the strike zone should be a strike. It doesn't matter if it lands in the other batter's box, next to the plate or back by my feet. It's actually in the definition of the strike zone that if any portion of the ball goes through the strike zone it is a strike.
I'm not sure what you mean by the arc problems. The emphasis on up and down is that the umpire must see the ball go three feet up from release and must be on the way down when it gets to the plate. A lot of pitchers that I've seen in Conference like to release the ball low, get it up to 4 or 4.5 feet but the pitch is still not on the way down when it gets to the plate. If you release at 3', get it up to 6' and it crosses at 5', on me that's a strike. I'm 6'3", you throw that same pitch to my buddy Premo who is 5'5", it's not a strike. The only requirement that I'm are of is that the ptich must be on a definite downward trajectory when it crosses the front of the plate. If your umpires are telling you different, I'll be more than happy to discuss it with Dave and Slim the next time I see them, right now that is supposed to be Challenge Cup.
 

ilyk2win

Addicted to Softballfans
Calling it where it lands is a huge issue. At every level I hear about how that pitch landed too far back or in the other batters box and can't be a strike. What I try and get across to them, and to some of my fellow umpires, is that the only bearing where a pitch lands has on whether a pitch is a strike or not is if it lands on the plate. Many umpires are basically playing mat ball back there and calling pitches based entirely on whether it lands in their imaginary box..

Agreed.....and it's bc an imaginary box is what most players think so it's easier to justify a call to them based on that than the actual strike zone. I enjoy umpiring, but there are parts of it that suck, and that is one of them.
 

jbo911

Super Moderator
Staff member
Calling it where it lands is a huge issue. At every level I hear about how that pitch landed too far back or in the other batters box and can't be a strike. What I try and get across to them, and to some of my fellow umpires, is that the only bearing where a pitch lands has on whether a pitch is a strike or not is if it lands on the plate. Many umpires are basically playing mat ball back there and calling pitches based entirely on whether it lands in their imaginary box.

The strike zone isn't a 2D rectangle that the ball has to go through to be a strike. It's a 3d polygon that if the ball touches any part of should be a strike. You're talking about taking a line from the front knee to the back shoulder, it should be taking five points at each corner of the plate, putting a cap on it at the highest shoulder and a floor on it at the height of the front knee. By the rules, if a stitch of the softball is below the highest shoulder when the ball is over the back point of the plate, then it should be a strike. No one calls it that way, but they are supposed to. I give a much heavier zone that most USSSA umpires, but I don't give that one.
Any part of the ball that touches any part of the strike zone should be a strike. It doesn't matter if it lands in the other batter's box, next to the plate or back by my feet. It's actually in the definition of the strike zone that if any portion of the ball goes through the strike zone it is a strike.
I'm not sure what you mean by the arc problems. The emphasis on up and down is that the umpire must see the ball go three feet up from release and must be on the way down when it gets to the plate. A lot of pitchers that I've seen in Conference like to release the ball low, get it up to 4 or 4.5 feet but the pitch is still not on the way down when it gets to the plate. If you release at 3', get it up to 6' and it crosses at 5', on me that's a strike. I'm 6'3", you throw that same pitch to my buddy Premo who is 5'5", it's not a strike. The only requirement that I'm are of is that the ptich must be on a definite downward trajectory when it crosses the front of the plate. If your umpires are telling you different, I'll be more than happy to discuss it with Dave and Slim the next time I see them, right now that is supposed to be Challenge Cup.
I agree with your interpretation, for lack of a better word, of the strike zone completely. If it were called that way, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Sadly, interpretation isn't too far off because a lot of impress think they can interpret very specific definitions however they want. The strike zone is concrete, but the ump's enforcement of it isn't.

The up down part was from a video by jred something about arc being travel up and travel down. If you use his thought process, as some umps have with me, a pitch released low like you can not be a strike because it can't be back to that height by the front of the plate and still clear the plate. By that rationale, every pitch released low is a ball because it didn't drop back down to the released point, which is absurd.
 

EAJuggalo

Addicted to Softballfans
I agree with your interpretation, for lack of a better word, of the strike zone completely. If it were called that way, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Sadly, interpretation isn't too far off because a lot of impress think they can interpret very specific definitions however they want. The strike zone is concrete, but the ump's enforcement of it isn't.

The up down part was from a video by jred something about arc being travel up and travel down. If you use his thought process, as some umps have with me, a pitch released low like you can not be a strike because it can't be back to that height by the front of the plate and still clear the plate. By that rationale, every pitch released low is a ball because it didn't drop back down to the released point, which is absurd.
Jred is Jason Oberlag, two time USSSA official of the year and Doc's right hand man the last couple years he was in charge before Dave and Slim took over. Those guys are cherry picking 5 seconds where he mis speaks and ignoring the other 3 minutes and 40 seconds of that video. There is no requirement that I've ever been informed of that the ball has to drop 3 feet before the plate. The rule I've always been given is that the ball must be on the way down. If you watch the second half of that video Jason talks about it. Not calling the pitch that comes up three feet, is flat through the zone then drops. Oddly enough, that video is after he stepped down from his position with National is just a trainer in Arkansas. In 2019 he gave that presentation in MN with Doc and said nothing about three feet down. The USSSA Slowpitch facebook page had a video from the 2019 Major World Series where Jason goes through the same thing, and says nothing about three feet down. Actually posted two years ago today, it popped up in my memories this morning.
 
Top