ASA What is the call on this one?

[DeputyUICHousto]

Co-Ed, bases loaded with one out. R1 (female) at 3rd base, R2 (male) and 2nd base, R3 (male) at 1st base. B5 at bat hits a single through the left side of the infield. R1 is very slow and R2 is very fast. As R1 approaches the plate so does R2. The throw comes in from F7 and arrives simultaneously with R1 and R2. R2 slides and touches the plate with his foot just before R1. Immediately after R2 touches the plate, R1 touches the plate. The throw to the plate was late and no play was made on either runner. What, if anything, do you rule?

 

[EAJuggalo]

No call unless R2 completely passed R1 on the basepath. If that happened then you would have R2 out for passing, R1's run counts and you have 2 outs.

 

[MaverickAH]

No call unless R2 completely passed R1 on the basepath. If that happened then you would have R2 out for passing, R1's run counts and you have 2 outs.

Additionally, I would consider R2's 1st touch of home as invalid since they have no right to the plate until after R1 has completed their duties. R2 would have to retouch or leave their foot there until after R1 for it to be legal.

 

[EAJuggalo]

Additionally, I would consider R2's 1st touch of home as invalid since they have no right to the plate until after R1 has completed their duties. R2 would have to retouch or leave their foot there until after R1 for it to be legal.

What is your rule cite for this? By rule 8.3.G R1 would not be able to go back and touch the plate after R2 scored. Any runner that passes a base is presumed to have touched it, so unless you have a valid appeal you have no call. With a valid appeal of R1 missing the plate you'd also have one run in and two outs.

 

[ureout]

What is your rule cite for this? By rule 8.3.G R1 would not be able to go back and touch the plate after R2 scored. Any runner that passes a base is presumed to have touched it, so unless you have a valid appeal you have no call. With a valid appeal of R1 missing the plate you'd also have one run in and two outs.

EA I think you mis-read it... there would be no need for R1 to re-touch HP it says she touched it just after R2

 

[EAJuggalo]

EA I think you mis-read it... there would be no need for R1 to re-touch HP it says she touched it just after R2

When R2 scored, R1 had not touched the plate. The rule I posted says that no runner may go back and touch after a following runner has scored. Now how many players or coaches would know that rule and call it? I don't know, but I have seen some players with some real weird rules knowledge.

 

[MaverickAH]

What is your rule cite for this? By rule 8.3.G R1 would not be able to go back and touch the plate after R2 scored. Any runner that passes a base is presumed to have touched it, so unless you have a valid appeal you have no call. With a valid appeal of R1 missing the plate you'd also have one run in and two outs.

Because R1 is the lead runner & has a right to the base/plate. R2 has no valid claim until after R1 has completed their base running duties. You cannot treat home plate any different than you would treat runners at any other base.

 

[EAJuggalo]

Because R1 is the lead runner & has a right to the base/plate. R2 has no valid claim until after R1 has completed their base running duties. You cannot treat home plate any different than you would treat runners at any other base.

Where's the rule cite? There is no where in the rulebook that says what you are claiming. In fact the rule I've pointed out specifically says once R2 touches the plate, R1 cannot complete their base running responsibilities. You have to treat it differently than you do at any other base.

 

[MaverickAH]

What you are failing to understand is that R1 HAS NOT completed their base running responsibilities until they've actually touched or passed the plate! So while R1 is still heading towards home, R2 has no legal right to it.

So while the odds of it actually happening are miniscule, if R2 happened to be tagged before R1 made contact with home plate, they would be called out.

Since you insist on a rule cite: 8.3.E, Effect #1

Be it for a split second or whatever, R2 cannot legal occupy home plate until R1 touches or passes.

 

[EAJuggalo]

What you are failing to understand is that R1 HAS NOT completed their base running responsibilities until they've actually touched or passed the plate! So while R1 is still heading towards home, R2 has no legal right to it.

So while the odds of it actually happening are miniscule, if R2 happened to be tagged before R1 made contact with home plate, they would be called out.

Since you insist on a rule cite: 8.3.E, Effect #1

Be it for a split second or whatever, R2 cannot legal occupy home plate until R1 touches or passes.

I believe you are wrong. I will wait to see what @DeputyUICHousto has to say. It is my belief that your rule cite that two players can't occupy the same base at the same time would not apply, you don't occupy the plate, and that rule specifically applies to protections from being tagged out while on a base. If R1 had not at least reached the plate, R2 would have completely passed R1 and would be out.

 

[MaverickAH]

I am not wrong & did you not read the OP?

It is possible for R2 to touch HP ahead of R1 & not have their entire body completely pass R1. If this happens (again, highly unusual but possible) R2's touch can't be considered legal until R1 completes their running duties. That means that R1 has to either touch home plate or be past it or be put out.

1. First of all the situation is bases loaded so the play at home on R1 is actually a force.
2. Deputy causes some confusion in his OP because one sentence says that the throw arrives simultaneously with R1 & R2 while the very next sentence says that the throw is late. Which is it? Where was the throw & what was the position of the catcher?

In any case, by rule, R2's first touch of home plate is not legal. They have no right to it until after R1 has touched or passed the plate. In the case described, no play was made on either runner so both are safe as long as R2's body was never completely past R1. All I am saying is that there is a small window where R2's touch is not valid.

 

[DeputyUICHousto]

I had this play actually occur several years ago in a co-ed league game. As I understand it, there is nothing that can be done except score both runs. I don't even believe there is an opportunity for the defense to appeal although that might be incorrect. Its been several years since I talked to the National Staff about it and my memory isn't as good as it once was. But, I remember that both runs would score.