ASA what's the call

AG# 1

Member
You make the call
Bottom of the 7th inning. Bases loaded, two outs. Visiting team up by one run.
Batter hits a fair ball for a ground rule double. Runner at third has touched home. Runner from second is between 3rd and home when the batter-runner passes the runner from first between first second. What’s the ruling?
 

defos

Well-Known Member
USA - 2 runs score. Runners on 2nd and 3rd, 2 outs.

I had a different answer ready until I read a bit more in the rule book.
 

DeputyUICHousto

Addicted to Softballfans
The runner from 3rd would score the tying run as passing a runner is not a dead ball out. And since the runner from 3rd scored before the out then the run should count.

Wow, I missed the score (unless it was changed).
 
Last edited:

AG# 1

Member
Agreed.

But just one run, not two.

so this is basically a timing play, even though it's a dead ball situation on the ground rule double? the runner on 3rd scores but the runner from 2nd doesn't score because the B/R passed the runner that was on 1st before he scored?

the dead ball situation and awarding of 2 bases on the ground rule double would not nullify the B/R passing the runner from 1st
 

NCASAUmp

Un-Retired
Even on a dead ball, runners still have to fulfill their baserunning responsibilities. This includes touching the bases in the proper order and not completely passing the runner in front of them.

Think of it this way… If the runner from second never touched third base, can you still appeal? They were awarded home, right?
 
I’m pretty sure that the rule below governs the play from the original post. Keep in mind it’s the umpires job to direct all players on the playing field when enforcing, applying the rules and positioning the runners as required by the rules.

USA/ASA Rule 8 Section 5 Runners are allowed to advance without liability to be put out
Para I. When a fair batted ball: 1. Bounces over, rolls under or through a fence or any designated boundary of the playing field. EFFECT: A. The ball is dead. B. All runners are awarded two bases from the time of the pitch.
 

AG# 1

Member
hmmm, good answer tttwp, NCASA / DEP.UIC, do you agree with this? ( Runners are allowed to advance without liability to be put out)
 

BretMan

Addicted to Softballfans
There’s no liability to be PUT OUT, as in “tagged by the defense”. But they can make outs by violating a rule.

On this one, I’d have the runner on third scoring. When the batter-runner passes the runner from first base, the batter-runner is out. If that out happens before any other runners cross the plate, then their runs don’t count.

As described, one run scores on this play. We now have a tie game and are going to the top of the eighth inning.
 
There’s no liability to be PUT OUT, as in “tagged by the defense”. But they can make outs by violating a rule.

On this one, I’d have the runner on third scoring. When the batter-runner passes the runner from first base, the batter-runner is out. If that out happens before any other runners cross the plate, then their runs don’t count.

As described, one run scores on this play. We now have a tie game and are going to the top of the eighth inning.


IF the umpire declares "ground rule double, dead ball, all runners advance two bases" which is his responsibility, then the Rule as written is correct. I conferred this ruling with both the Georgia and North Carolina USA/ASA state Chief of Umpires and in earlier post copied the rule, word for word.

They both conferred also that the only way this is overturned is if there is an appeal play that might trump the rule, example runners instructed to advance two bases and any runner failing to actually tag the bags, as instructed, in proper order.

In the real world, there is not much probability that on a line drive hit into the outfield that bounces over the fence that any batter could run fast enough to pass the runner that started on first base before said runner reached second.
 

ureout

The Veteran
tied 2... I didn't read anywhere that it was a line drive to the outfield... it also could have been a high fly ball that happened to bounce over or go under a fence upon landing... I also agree with Bretman that all runners have to complete their responsibilities whether it be to touch all bases awarded and not to pass another runner in doing so
 
In earlier post I quoted rule and effect directly from USA/Asa 2020 rule book, confirmed with Georgia and NC ASA Chief Umpires, several posters differ but only offer an opinion without a supporting rule.

I’ll stand by the rule :
I’m pretty sure that the rule below governs the play from the original post. Keep in mind it’s the umpires job to direct all players on the playing field when enforcing, applying the rules and positioning the runners as required by the rules.

USA/ASA Rule 8 Section 5 Runners are allowed to advance without liability to be put out
Para I. When a fair batted ball: 1. Bounces over, rolls under or through a fence or any designated boundary of the playing field. EFFECT: A. The ball is dead. B. All runners are awarded two bases from the time of the pitch.
 

Sully

Wanna buy jerseys/rings?
I’m pretty sure that the rule below governs the play from the original post. Keep in mind it’s the umpires job to direct all players on the playing field when enforcing, applying the rules and positioning the runners as required by the rules.

USA/ASA Rule 8 Section 5 Runners are allowed to advance without liability to be put out
Para I. When a fair batted ball: 1. Bounces over, rolls under or through a fence or any designated boundary of the playing field. EFFECT: A. The ball is dead. B. All runners are awarded two bases from the time of the pitch.

Just curious using this logic, if the batter hits a ground rule double and is watching it and hasn't touched first base, once the ground rule double is declared can the runner just go directly to second base without touching first? The answer is no. The reason is because even though it is a dead ball, the runners are still obligated to complete their base running responsibilities.

Rule 8, Section 3-i says, "Awarded bases must be touched in legal order". The exception is in adult slow pitch for home runs or four base awards. That exception specifically says "This eliminates any possible outs or any appeal play on the batter-runner or runners for any base running infractions." If it is not listed in the exception it means they must legally touch the bases. That also means the runner can be called out for baserunning infractions like passing the runner in front of them.
 
Just curious using this logic, if the batter hits a ground rule double and is watching it and hasn't touched first base, once the ground rule double is declared can the runner just go directly to second base without touching first? The answer is no. The reason is because even though it is a dead ball, the runners are still obligated to complete their base running responsibilities.

Rule 8, Section 3-i says, "Awarded bases must be touched in legal order". The exception is in adult slow pitch for home runs or four base awards. That exception specifically says "This eliminates any possible outs or any appeal play on the batter-runner or runners for any base running infractions." If it is not listed in the exception it means they must legally touch the bases. That also means the runner can be called out for baserunning infractions like passing the runner in front of them.

The argument from the others on this thread aren't about runners not touching bases in order, ie skipping bases, its for batter-runner passing the runner that was on first base. When the umpire declares, ground rule double, dead ball, all runners are awarded two bases from the time of the pitch, it is the umpire who directs play at that point. I now have also added the Virginia USA/ASA Chief Umpire to the NC and Georgia chief umpires that agree 100% with the rule: USA/ASA Rule 8 Section 5 Runners are allowed to advance without liability to be put out
Para I. When a fair batted ball: 1. Bounces over, rolls under or through a fence or any designated boundary of the playing field. EFFECT: A. The ball is dead. B. All runners are awarded two bases from the time of the pitch.


All
three do agree that an appeal play, such of a runner missing a base, and ONLY an appeal play could trump the written rule. If any of the others on here that disagree, simply cut and paste a rule that overrides the one that i have listed from the rule book. Simple as that and i will stand corrected. Otherwise, there is an old saying, "there are only two ways to argue with a woman, ......................... and neither one works!!
 
OK guys, straight out of the USA/ASA 2020 Rule book:

Rule 5 - The Game, Section 5 - Scoring of Runs, Para B - NO run shall be scored if the third out of the inning is the result of:
2 - A runner being put out by a tag, called out for passing a runner or a live ball appeal prior to the lead runner touching home plate.

So, if the batter does pass the runner from first prior to that second runner scoring, i would say this trumps the awarding of two bases for all runners from the time of the pitch. Now does this mean that neither run is scored? and the visiting team wins by one run?

Wow, again i commend AG#1 for coming up with this complicated scenario. It forced me to read the rule book again from start to finish.
 

EAJuggalo

Addicted to Softballfans
In what other scenarios do we call runners out for things during a dead ball that would be a violation if done during a live ball period? If a runner steps into the dugout for something during a pitching change are we calling them out? Do we call a runner out for leaving early if the pitcher is not in the pitching area? Are we calling out runners that lean on their base coaches while fixing their uniforms? Without having something in the case play book, which this would make a very good addition to, I'm not calling the runner out for passing.
 

ureout

The Veteran
EA.. tied 2 posted this above...Rule 5 - The Game, Section 5 - Scoring of Runs, Para B - NO run shall be scored if the third out of the inning is the result of: 2 - A runner being put out by a tag, called out for passing a runner or a live ball appeal prior to the lead runner touching home plate.
 

EAJuggalo

Addicted to Softballfans
EA.. tied 2 posted this above...Rule 5 - The Game, Section 5 - Scoring of Runs, Para B - NO run shall be scored if the third out of the inning is the result of: 2 - A runner being put out by a tag, called out for passing a runner or a live ball appeal prior to the lead runner touching home plate.
And two of those things have to be done while the ball is live, I would argue that implies that all three of them only apply when the ball is live. This is one of those things that we can all make valid arguments about what we believe the call should be, until there is an interpretation from the top we are all going to have our own. I'm not calling that B-R out for passing R1 if the ball is dead.
 

ilyk2win

Addicted to Softballfans
Don Briscoe of USSSA sent this exact scenario out a couple week ago

262. The score is Visitors 6, Home 5 with the bases loaded and two outs in the bottom of the seventh inning. B6 hits a fair ball for a ground-rule double. R1 from third base has touched home, and R2 from second base is between third base and home when B6 passes R3 between first and second bases.

Ruling - this is a TIME PLAY and ONE RUN (R1) SCORES. R2's run would be disallowed if he touches the plate AFTER the third out of the inning (the passing of R3 by B6) (4.5, p 27; 8.5.P, p 45)
 
Don Briscoe of USSSA sent this exact scenario out a couple week ago

262. The score is Visitors 6, Home 5 with the bases loaded and two outs in the bottom of the seventh inning. B6 hits a fair ball for a ground-rule double. R1 from third base has touched home, and R2 from second base is between third base and home when B6 passes R3 between first and second bases.

Ruling - this is a TIME PLAY and ONE RUN (R1) SCORES. R2's run would be disallowed if he touches the plate AFTER the third out of the inning (the passing of R3 by B6) (4.5, p 27; 8.5.P, p 45)

The original poster asked for a ruling for USA/ ASA and not USSSA. The rule book for USSSA has several rules that aren’t the same as other leagues and I continue to stand by the rules that I posted that would be interpreted by an umpire that is on top of his game, “ground rule double, dead ball, All runners Awarded two bases from the time of the pitch”.
And I also stand by a real world view of the amount of time that this play would take to complete. Ball hit over, through, or under fence with umpire declaring the “above” in quotation, no batter could pass the runner from first that is running on the crack of the bat and thus anything happening after the home plate ump declares dead ball and actively directs every runner as to where they are to end up with the two bases from their original position from time of pitch,would be moot.

But in the event idiot #1 stood around first base and didn’t run and was passed by idiot#2 who was the batter, they certainly deserve to lose but fortunately for them there are rules that compensate for their ignorance.
 

DeputyUICHousto

Addicted to Softballfans
So, if a batter hits a ground rule double and goes directly to 2nd base without touching first base are you going to allow that? Since its a dead ball do base running responsibilities cease? I don't think so. However, if a batter in FP hits a home run and then removes her helmet (a clear violation of rules) we don't call her out. This needs a clarification from above.
 

MaverickAH

Well-Known Member
OK guys, straight out of the USA/ASA 2020 Rule book:

Rule 5 - The Game, Section 5 - Scoring of Runs, Para B - NO run shall be scored if the third out of the inning is the result of:
2 - A runner being put out by a tag, called out for passing a runner or a live ball appeal prior to the lead runner touching home plate.

So, if the batter does pass the runner from first prior to that second runner scoring, i would say this trumps the awarding of two bases for all runners from the time of the pitch. Now does this mean that neither run is scored? and the visiting team wins by one run?

Wow, again i commend AG#1 for coming up with this complicated scenario. It forced me to read the rule book again from start to finish.

Okay.........

I would make the argument that this is only applicable when the ball is live. I would refer you to Rule 8.7.D. This specifically speaks to the effects of what happens when a runner passes another runner & one of those effects is that the ball remains live. The moment a ground rule double is announced, the ball is dead & all ongoing play ceases. Play cannot continue until all runners are allowed sufficient time to complete their assignments.

So the real question is: Does the rule still apply in a dead ball situation? I would argue that it does not.
 
So, if a batter hits a ground rule double and goes directly to 2nd base without touching first base are you going to allow that? Since its a dead ball do base running responsibilities cease? I don't think so. However, if a batter in FP hits a home run and then removes her helmet (a clear violation of rules) we don't call her out. This needs a clarification from above.

several guys pose situations that simply aren’t real, when have you seen a batter hit a burner that bounces over the fence and runs straight to second base?

many of the posters on this thread are ignoring the fact that a “good umpire” controls the game as specified in the rules, ie announces the situation by observing the play = ground rule double, sets the parameters of what the effect is = dead ball, then directs the resulting play on the field = all runners are awarded two bases from their location at time of the pitch. Really not that difficult, I was an ASA sanctioned umpire in NC from 1976 thru 1998, I found it enjoyable to call a well played and competitive game, complimenting the play on the field with good, solid umpiring.
 

Sully

Wanna buy jerseys/rings?
several guys pose situations that simply aren’t real, when have you seen a batter hit a burner that bounces over the fence and runs straight to second base?

many of the posters on this thread are ignoring the fact that a “good umpire” controls the game as specified in the rules, ie announces the situation by observing the play = ground rule double, sets the parameters of what the effect is = dead ball, then directs the resulting play on the field = all runners are awarded two bases from their location at time of the pitch. Really not that difficult, I was an ASA sanctioned umpire in NC from 1976 thru 1998, I found it enjoyable to call a well played and competitive game, complimenting the play on the field with good, solid umpiring.

You are missing the whole point of the runner going straight to second position, but I'm not surprised because you aren't really trying to listen to anyone's point. The point of the going straight to second example is that your responsibility to legally run the bases doesn't cease to exist because the ball is declared dead. If it did, the runner would be able to go directly to second base without touching first. That was the point. Hopefully you acknowledge that just because the ball is declared dead doesn't eliminate the runner's responsibility to legally touch the bases in order.

Which brings up the whole point of that scenario. If the runner is still required to complete his baserunning responsibilities, then could he still be called out for not performing them properly, i.e. illegally passing a previous runner while completing those responsibilities? What if the ball rolls under the fence after the batter-runner had already passed the runner on 1st who was waiting to see if the fielder catches the ball? So he passes the runner while the ball is still live but it ends up being a ground rule double. I would be interested if one of the state UIC's you said are monitoring this could answer with a case book example. The runner is still required to legally run the bases unlike a HR, so he can be called out on appeal for missing the base. So it's not like the play is instantly over. This has to have been covered in a case book example over the years.

I'm not saying you are wrong, I am just trying to explain the reason the going straight to second scenario was brought up.
 
Sully, hope this response doesn't get too long. And yes, i have been listening to other points of view. With your last scenario in post directly above, the entire play is different from the original posted play. You, and others, have presented a situation where the batter-runner passes the preceding runner BEFORE the ball goes out of the field of play which would result in this call.

Loudly the umpire declares "Batter-Runner is out for passing preceding runner, 3rd out, game over. Supported by this rule that i had listed earlier in this thread : Rule 5 - The Game, Section 5 - Scoring of Runs, Para B - NO run shall be scored if the third out of the inning is the result of: 2 - A runner being put out by a tag, called out for passing a runner or a live ball appeal prior to the lead runner touching home plate.

I have just been advocating that the way the original scenario was posted, ie "Ground rule double has already been declared before any of the other action occurs (please go back and read the OP), the plate umpire would loudly declare, in order, 1) ground rule double 2) dead ball 3) all runners awarded two bases from original position at time of pitch and this would be the rule in effect. And of course, the runners would have to complete the direction of the home plate umpire properly or be in jeopardy of being called out. The umpire is the director of the play just like in a movie. Not being argumentative, just trying to follow the timing of the original play and apply what i deem to be the correct ruling as written in the rule book. My ruling would be exactly as i have stated above, again depending on what i would see from home plate in the timing sequences posed above. One ruling from the original post, a different ruling from your proposed timed play.
 

dunkky

Well-Known Member
All these extracurricular activities after play is dead.. lol.. damn... no one cheated. dude hit a game winning double. game over!! Honor it. You wanna beg for your victory in rec softball cuz you can't out hit your opponent, by all means. That's pitiful.
 

ureout

The Veteran
tied 2, you stated, (I have just been advocating that the way the original scenario was posted, ie "Ground rule double has already been declared before any of the other action occurs (please go back and read the OP),

where does it say in the ORIGINAL scenario when the ground rule double was declared


here is the orig. post (Bottom of the 7th inning. Bases loaded, two outs. Visiting team up by one run .Batter hits a fair ball for a ground rule double.)
 

EAJuggalo

Addicted to Softballfans
Don Briscoe of USSSA sent this exact scenario out a couple week ago

262. The score is Visitors 6, Home 5 with the bases loaded and two outs in the bottom of the seventh inning. B6 hits a fair ball for a ground-rule double. R1 from third base has touched home, and R2 from second base is between third base and home when B6 passes R3 between first and second bases.

Ruling - this is a TIME PLAY and ONE RUN (R1) SCORES. R2's run would be disallowed if he touches the plate AFTER the third out of the inning (the passing of R3 by B6) (4.5, p 27; 8.5.P, p 45)
FWIW, I think Don is wrong on this one. 4.5 specifies the limited scenarios in which a run is not allowed if it crosses before the third out of an inning. 8.5.P says that a runner is out if they completely pass a preceding runner before that runner is put out. In the effect of that rule however it states that the ball remains live and in play. The ball can't remain live and in play if it is already dead. I will bring it up the next time I work a Conference event and see what is said. I will also mention it next time I see both Don's boss and the National Slowpitch UIC, which will be in July at the latest.
 
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