ASA what's the call

[Tied to the whipping post]

tied 2, you stated, (I have just been advocating that the way the original scenario was posted, ie "Ground rule double has already been declared before any of the other action occurs (please go back and read the OP),

where does it say in the ORIGINAL scenario when the ground rule double was declared

here is the orig. post (Bottom of the 7th inning. Bases loaded, two outs. Visiting team up by one run .Batter hits a fair ball for a ground rule double.)

You make the call
Bottom of the 7th inning. Bases loaded, two outs. Visiting team up by one run.
Batter hits a fair ball for a ground rule double. Runner at third has touched home. Runner from second is between 3rd and home when the batter-runner passes the runner from first between first second. What’s the ruling?

The umpire of record is the only person that can determine if a batted ball is a ground rule double, the umpires job is to facilitate the organized and continuous movement of the game in accordance with the rules of the governing organization. I also copied the original post and only having the printed original post, i assumed that the umpire would have verbalized the ground rule double in the sequence of events as written. I've given Rules and Effects for both scenarios in my response to Sully, both are correct. If something that i have missed, please let me know.

 

[ureout]

tied 2 ... you said... i assumed that the umpire would have verbalized the ground rule double in the sequence of events as written
I hope you know the old saying about assuming...lol

one of the 1st things i was taught as an umpire was to never ASSUME an ending to a play but instead anticipate what could happen before each play just as a defender does in the field

 

[Tied to the whipping post]

tied 2 ... you said... i assumed that the umpire would have verbalized the ground rule double in the sequence of events as written
I hope you know the old saying about assuming...lol - I agree with you 100%, T2

one of the 1st things i was taught as an umpire was to never ASSUME an ending to a play but instead anticipate what could happen before each play just as a defender does in the field

Let me rephrase my answer, an umpire that was on his game would declare a ground rule double as soon as it occurred and then follow his duties of directing the subsequent play on the field which would include, declaring a dead ball situation, and announcing that all runners to be awarded two bases from their original position at the time of the pitch.

This is what i would do if i were the umpire. Ureout, is this also what you would do on this play? I'm pretty sure that you would also. Unfortunately there are many umpires that don't get their game situation calls correct, but most try pretty hard to provide a good game for both teams. Fine tuning their skills annually is always a good thing. i enjoyed directing clinics for umpires back in the "olden days" when i was an ASA sanctioned umpire in NC.

 

[EAJuggalo]

Let me rephrase my answer, an umpire that was on his game would declare a ground rule double as soon as it occurred and then follow his duties of directing the subsequent play on the field which would include, declaring a dead ball situation, and announcing that all runners to be awarded two bases from their original position at the time of the pitch.

This is what i would do if i were the umpire. Ureout, is this also what you would do on this play? I'm pretty sure that you would also. Unfortunately there are many umpires that don't get their game situation calls correct, but most try pretty hard to provide a good game for both teams. Fine tuning their skills annually is always a good thing. i enjoyed directing clinics for umpires back in the "olden days" when i was an ASA sanctioned umpire in NC.

Why are you declaring a ground rule double before you kill the play? I'm calling a dead ball, announcing two bases and then watching to make sure the runners go where they are supposed to.

 

[Tied to the whipping post]

Why are you declaring a ground rule double before you kill the play? I'm calling a dead ball, announcing two bases and then watching to make sure the runners go where they are supposed to.

OK, if it makes better sense, i would declare, 1) dead ball, 2) ground rule double (as an explanation to all players both offense and defense as to the cause for a dead ball situation), and 3) direct the runners per the rule to advance the two awarded bases. Completion of their base running assignments are their obligation of course.

But you kill the play declaring dead ball as a result of the ball going out of play via a ground rule double, so in my way of thinking and directing the play on the field, i prefer to present the situation, then the effect of the rule. i guess just what i've always done.

 

[NCASAUmp]

I’ll speak with my higher-ups and report back.

 

[NCASAUmp]

I've reached out to my higher-ups to get clarification. However, I'm also a student of the game, and did some digging around. I found this play from the April 2017 Clarifications and Plays, linked here: https://www.teamusa.org/USA-Softball/News/2017/April/06/April-Plays-and-Clarifications

Play (Fast Pitch): R1 on 3B, R2 on 2B and R3 on 1B and two outs B6 hits an over the fence home run. In the act of running the bases B6 passes R3 in a) after R1 and R2 had touched home plate and in b) before R2 touches home plate. The plate umpire should rule:

Ruling: In a) when B6 passes R3 they would be called out and two runs would score since R1 and R2 had scored prior to the third out. In b) when B6 passes R3, they would be called out and since this is the third out the only run that would count would be R1. Rule 8, Section 7D and Rule 5, Section 5B

So while this situation differs in the sense that it's a home run in fast pitch as opposed to a two-base award, the ruling should be the same - batter-runner is out, only one run scores.

Please pass that along to the people you spoke with.

 

[Sully]

Sully, hope this response doesn't get too long. And yes, i have been listening to other points of view. With your last scenario in post directly above, the entire play is different from the original posted play. You, and others, have presented a situation where the batter-runner passes the preceding runner BEFORE the ball goes out of the field of play which would result in this call.

Loudly the umpire declares "Batter-Runner is out for passing preceding runner, 3rd out, game over. Supported by this rule that i had listed earlier in this thread : Rule 5 - The Game, Section 5 - Scoring of Runs, Para B - NO run shall be scored if the third out of the inning is the result of: 2 - A runner being put out by a tag, called out for passing a runner or a live ball appeal prior to the lead runner touching home plate.

I have just been advocating that the way the original scenario was posted, ie "Ground rule double has already been declared before any of the other action occurs (please go back and read the OP), the plate umpire would loudly declare, in order, 1) ground rule double 2) dead ball 3) all runners awarded two bases from original position at time of pitch and this would be the rule in effect. And of course, the runners would have to complete the direction of the home plate umpire properly or be in jeopardy of being called out. The umpire is the director of the play just like in a movie. Not being argumentative, just trying to follow the timing of the original play and apply what i deem to be the correct ruling as written in the rule book. My ruling would be exactly as i have stated above, again depending on what i would see from home plate in the timing sequences posed above. One ruling from the original post, a different ruling from your proposed timed play.

I'm not really arguing with you. Once we started talking about this scenario I kind of rabbit holed down the what-if line and wondered what happens if the ball is still a live ball and then rolls under the fence out of play but the batter-runner passes the previous runner before it goes under. Then it comes down to a timing play I guess. The OP doesn't actually say the ground rule double happened before the rest. He listed it but never specifically said that was the order. Either way, listing the names of the umpires that gave you those rulings helps sometimes because some of these guys work state and national level events and may know some of these guys to have this discussion directly with or ask for a casebook play. If you say three state UIC's gave you the same ruling, it should be the correct ruling.

 

[NCASAUmp]

I'm not really arguing with you. Once we started talking about this scenario I kind of rabbit holed down the what-if line and wondered what happens if the ball is still a live ball and then rolls under the fence out of play but the batter-runner passes the previous runner before it goes under. Then it comes down to a timing play I guess. The OP doesn't actually say the ground rule double happened before the rest. He listed it but never specifically said that was the order. Either way, listing the names of the umpires that gave you those rulings helps sometimes because some of these guys work state and national level events and may know some of these guys to have this discussion directly with or ask for a casebook play. If you say three state UIC's gave you the same ruling, it should be the correct ruling.

The clarification I just posted comes from the National office in Oklahoma City. Can’t get any higher than that.

One run scores, change ‘em up.

 

[ureout]

NCASA, excellent post and clarification on dead ball base running responsibilities... thx

 

[Tied to the whipping post]

NCASAUmp from post above at 10:41 yesterday:

I've reached out to my higher-ups to get clarification. However, I'm also a student of the game, and did some digging around. I found this play from the April 2017 Clarifications and Plays, linked here: https://www.teamusa.org/USA-Softball/News/2017/April/06/April-Plays-and-Clarifications

Play (Fast Pitch): R1 on 3B, R2 on 2B and R3 on 1B and two outs B6 hits an over the fence home run. In the act of running the bases B6 passes R3 in a) after R1 and R2 had touched home plate and in b) before R2 touches home plate. The plate umpire should rule:

Ruling: In a) when B6 passes R3 they would be called out and two runs would score since R1 and R2 had scored prior to the third out. In b) when B6 passes R3, they would be called out and since this is the third out the only run that would count would be R1. Rule 8, Section 7D and Rule 5, Section 5B

So while this situation differs in the sense that it's a home run in fast pitch as opposed to a two-base award, the ruling should be the same - batter-runner is out, only one run scores.

Please pass that along to the people you spoke with.



Response: If this ruling applied to slow pitch, the play would not have a designation of (Fast Pitch), which means this particular ruling or clarification only applies to Fast Pitch.

In your final sentence of analysis, also highlighted, the ruling should be the same - I also disagree as this is interpreting a written rule to fit your narrative for two reasons, home run vs ground rule double are different scenarios, fast pitch vs slow pitch are different in numerous rule/play requirements.

NCASAUmp posted today at 6:08 AM in response to Sully's comment which is below, with NCASAUmp comment below it.

Sully said: ↑
I'm not really arguing with you. Once we started talking about this scenario I kind of rabbit holed down the what-if line and wondered what happens if the ball is still a live ball and then rolls under the fence out of play but the batter-runner passes the previous runner before it goes under. Then it comes down to a timing play I guess. The OP doesn't actually say the ground rule double happened before the rest. He listed it but never specifically said that was the order. Either way, listing the names of the umpires that gave you those rulings helps sometimes because some of these guys work state and national level events and may know some of these guys to have this discussion directly with or ask for a casebook play. If you say three state UIC's gave you the same ruling, it should be the correct ruling.

NCASAUmp - The clarification I just posted comes from the National office in Oklahoma City. Can’t get any higher than that.
One run scores, change ‘em up.


RESPONSE: Again, quoting a clarification and/or ruling for (fast pitch).

You may converse with the three state officials that i conferenced with from Georgia, N Carolina, and Virginia, they are listed in The Official Rules of Softball - Umpire Edition USA/ASA under Umpire-in-chief by state. They gladly accepted my text message to discuss the USA/ASA slow pitch rule book.

 

[Tied to the whipping post]

NCASA, excellent post and clarification on dead ball base running responsibilities... thx

yes, a clarification that is applicable to (fast pitch) home run, not to be confused with a ground rule double in slow pitch

 

[NCASAUmp]

It was applied to fast pitch because in slow pitch, runners aren’t required to run the bases on a home run.

And I don’t know who you talked to in NC, because the person I spoke with gave me a different ruling from yours. They confirmed my ruling.

 

[Tied to the whipping post]

It was applied to fast pitch because in slow pitch, runners aren’t required to run the bases on a home run.

And I don’t know who you talked to in NC, because the person I spoke with gave me a different ruling from yours. They confirmed my ruling.

I spoke with the UIC for each of the three states that I listed. I sent text asking for their rulings, and for the situation, I sent the original post exactly as written, allowed them time to read, research and then call me to discuss by phone, each of their decisions.

you have exemplified what I’ve said earlier, many posters reference rules, situations, case history using examples ,ie the (fast pitch) home run decision that you used when the critical decision needed to be applicable for a “ground rule double, dead ball, all runners awarded two bases from their position at the time of the pitch”.

I’ve done all I can do to support the ruling that fits the situation using the available, printed rules.

 

[NCASAUmp]

Well, that's odd, because I spoke with one of those three you're referring to, and he agreed with my ruling.

I stand behind my ruling 100%, and have referenced all the interpretation handed out by the National Office out of Oklahoma City.

 

[Tied to the whipping post]

Well, that's odd, because I spoke with one of those three you're referring to, and he agreed with my ruling.

I stand behind my ruling 100%, and have referenced all the interpretation handed out by the National Office out of Oklahoma City.

fine with me, but I still question the Oklahoma City official using a “fast pitch” home run rule to determine an effect in a slow pitch ground rule double situation........................just saying, but I’m done with this thread. Now we can review and possibly debate the next “ask the umpire” situation that’s posted.

 

[BretMan]

The fact that the case play references FP is irrelevant. It’s illustrating that runners have the responsibility to run the bases legally, even awarded bases and even while the ball is dead. That's true for either slow or fast pitch.

 

[dunkky]

I personally have no problem completing all due diligence and I always give my best effort in all aspects.

But, let me just be a devil advocate here. How does this responsibility after the ball is dead add really anything to the game? I mean if we gonna be consistent, let's be consistent throughout all situations to force the standard and integrity. Just make the hitter and the base runners complete the diamonds every time HR is hit. Save time what, base runners walk the dugout anyway. never seen anyone really sprinting to dugout to save time at all level. We are talking about differences of 30 sec maybe??

The reason i am saying that is that inconsistent responsibility and integrity are causing this type of situation. Just saying...

 

[Sully]

I personally have no problem completing all due diligence and I always give my best effort in all aspects.

But, let me just be a devil advocate here. How does this responsibility after the ball is dead add really anything to the game? I mean if we gonna be consistent, let's be consistent throughout all situations to force the standard and integrity. Just make the hitter and the base runners complete the diamonds every time HR is hit. Save time what, base runners walk the dugout anyway. never seen anyone really sprinting to dugout to save time at all level. We are talking about differences of 30 sec maybe??

The reason i am saying that is that inconsistent responsibility and integrity are causing this type of situation. Just saying...

Ironically enough, in addition to speeding up the game, one of the reasons listed for hit and sit is it removes possible appeal plays while running the bases. Rule 8.I Awarded bases must be touched in legal order. EXCEPTION: All adult slow pitch. On any fair batted ball hit over the fence for a home run or on a four base award, the batter and all runners are credited with a win. The batter and any bases on base are not required to run the bases. This eliminates any possible outs or ANY APPEAL PLAY ON THE BATTER-RUNNER OR RUNNERS FOR ANY BASE RUNNING INFRACTIONS.

 

[Tied to the whipping post]

The fact that the case play references FP is irrelevant. It’s illustrating that runners have the responsibility to run the bases legally, even awarded bases and even while the ball is dead. That's true for either slow or fast pitch.

I disagree, it references FP because that particular rule or section or paragraph ONLY applies to FP. There may be another rule applicable to SP or Co-Ed that specifically apply to them and the rule will designate Play (fast pitch) or Play (co-Ed). I agree that runners have an obligation to properly run the bases, just that a runner passing another runner in Sr softball (which is the association we were discussing, if I recall) can only occur during a live ball situation.

 

[Sully]

The original poster asked for a ruling for USA/ ASA and not USSSA. The rule book for USSSA has several rules that aren’t the same as other leagues and I continue to stand by the rules that I posted that would be interpreted by an umpire that is on top of his game, “ground rule double, dead ball, All runners Awarded two bases from the time of the pitch”.
And I also stand by a real world view of the amount of time that this play would take to complete. Ball hit over, through, or under fence with umpire declaring the “above” in quotation, no batter could pass the runner from first that is running on the crack of the bat and thus anything happening after the home plate ump declares dead ball and actively directs every runner as to where they are to end up with the two bases from their original position from time of pitch,would be moot.

But in the event idiot #1 stood around first base and didn’t run and was passed by idiot#2 who was the batter, they certainly deserve to lose but fortunately for them there are rules that compensate for their ignorance.

Here you said it was for USA/ASA not Seniors. Maybe I missed it but I didn't see any reference to Seniors at all.

I am still curious who your State UICs were. NCASA said he talked to one of them and he agreed with him. Names would make that easier to confirm. There seems to be a disconnect.

 

[dunkky]

Ironically enough, in addition to speeding up the game, one of the reasons listed for hit and sit is it removes possible appeal plays while running the bases. Rule 8.I Awarded bases must be touched in legal order. EXCEPTION: All adult slow pitch. On any fair batted ball hit over the fence for a home run or on a four base award, the batter and all runners are credited with a win. The batter and any bases on base are not required to run the bases. This eliminates any possible outs or ANY APPEAL PLAY ON THE BATTER-RUNNER OR RUNNERS FOR ANY BASE RUNNING INFRACTIONS.

well, let's apply the same damn thing in this situation too then. So, there will be no appeal. dude hit a game ending double, period. who cares what those clowns 1st base or the batter does, their base running action do not account for winning run. It does absolutely nothing.

 

[Tied to the whipping post]

Here you said it was for USA/ASA not Seniors. Maybe I missed it but I didn't see any reference to Seniors at all.

I am still curious who your State UICs were. NCASA said he talked to one of them and he agreed with him. Names would make that easier to confirm. There seems to be a disconnect.

Sully, i gave NCASA the three states that i contacted and listed exactly where to find them, the names won't change from what is listed in the book. All one has to do is look under the state. Out of respect, i won't list their names individually, but they are printed in the USA/ASA directory which is a part of the rule book. Georgia, Virginia, N Carolina you're welcome, all three agreed with me.

 

[Sully]

I know Bretman and NCASA call high level USA ball. The ruling from Oklahoma City backs what they say. If Bretman and NCASA agree on a rule, especially for USA softball, I would bet money on it. NCASA also talked to one of the three who told him something different than they told you. As far as I'm concerned and Oklahoma City is concerned, one run scores, the other runner is out for ****ty baserunning and it sucks to suck.

 

[Sully]

well, let's apply the same damn thing in this situation too then. So, there will be no appeal. dude hit a game ending double, period. who cares what those clowns 1st base or the batter does, their base running action do not account for winning run. It does absolutely nothing.

I get your argument, but the rules say you have to successfully complete your baserunning responsibilities. You can't pass a previous runner. It still happens in MLB, the Dodgers did it at the beginning of this year. Bellinger passed Justin Turner. It happened because Turner wasn't sure the ball was a HR and waited. Bellinger had a different angle and saw it go over so he was still running. He knew as soon as he passed Turner what had happened. You could see it on his face. The Dodgers had a homerun turned into an out and lost a run. Why? Because the rules at all levels say you can't pass a previous runner while completing your baserunning responsibilities. Slowpitch removed it for the homerun. There is a process to submit rule changes. USA softball does changes rules. You didn't used to be able to use knob cuffs on an ASA bat. Someone decided the rule needed changed and now you can.

In the mean time, it keeps the rules consistent. If I can pass the runner during a ground rule double, why can't I pass the runner during live play as long as he scores before I do? It doesn't really affect the order you score in if you fix it before the lead runner touches home. You can't because you can never pass a runner without a specific exception.

 

[EAJuggalo]

In the mean time, it keeps the rules consistent. If I can pass the runner during a ground rule double, why can't I pass the runner during live play as long as he scores before I do? It doesn't really affect the order you score in if you fix it before the lead runner touches home. You can't because you can never pass a runner without a specific exception.

Because of the difference of the ball being live and the ball being dead. If we are penalizing the B-R in this situation for passing a runner during the dead ball wouldn't consistency dictate that we penalize the runner at 2nd that comes over to speak with the 3rd base coach during a pitching change? Or a runner that goes into the dugout to put their batting gloves away? The fact the ball is dead is the part that still trips me up on this ruling. Not the first time I disagree with a ruling from higher up, won't be the last time.

 

[NCASAUmp]

Sully, i gave NCASA the three states that i contacted and listed exactly where to find them, the names won't change from what is listed in the book. All one has to do is look under the state. Out of respect, i won't list their names individually, but they are printed in the USA/ASA directory which is a part of the rule book. Georgia, Virginia, N Carolina you're welcome, all three agreed with me.

I find it interesting that you reference NC, as I spoke to the proper person within NC. He agreed with my ruling.

Personally, I think you're zeroing in on the wrong detail here - that being that the scenario they presented refers to fast pitch. It refers to fast pitch only because in slow pitch, home runs are "hit-and-sit," whereas fast pitch requires the runners to touch 'em all. USA Softball presented one scenario to illustrate a point, not to say "this is something that only should be applied to just fast pitch." It's a scenario they chose to illustrate the runners' responsibilities on a base award during a dead ball.

There are very few baserunning rules that are specific to fast pitch (such as the LBR, D3K), and this isn't one of them.

 

[Sully]

Because of the difference of the ball being live and the ball being dead. If we are penalizing the B-R in this situation for passing a runner during the dead ball wouldn't consistency dictate that we penalize the runner at 2nd that comes over to speak with the 3rd base coach during a pitching change? Or a runner that goes into the dugout to put their batting gloves away? The fact the ball is dead is the part that still trips me up on this ruling. Not the first time I disagree with a ruling from higher up, won't be the last time.

The Homerun rule in fastpitch says: "On any over the fence homerun all base runners and the batter runner have LIVE BASE RUNNING RESPONSIBILITIES. The batter-runner and any runner can be called out for passing a preceding runner. You can't get an out on over the fence homerun (or ground rule double) unless that runner doesn't complete the live base running responsibilities. That's the difference between talking to a coach after you've completed your live base running responsibilities and passing a previous baserunner before you've completed the live base running responsibilities.

I can also still appeal a runner that misses a base even though it's a dead ball. He still has to complete the live base running responsibilities.

I'm pretty sure this is one of the reasons the slow pitch rules specifically says "This eliminates any possible outs or an appeal play on the batter-runner or runners for any base running infractions."

 

[Scruffy harry]

In WBSC rules (slowpitch), home runs have to be run out. But there is a rule that says you cannot be given out for passing a preceding runner on a dead-ball award, which includes walks, over-the-fence home runs, ground-rule doubles, etc.

 

[NCASAUmp]

In WBSC rules (slowpitch), home runs have to be run out. But there is a rule that says you cannot be given out for passing a preceding runner on a dead-ball award, which includes walks, over-the-fence home runs, ground-rule doubles, etc.

The OP did not ask for a WBSC ruling.