I looked and couldn't find the exact responsibility in the Umpire manual, nothing about the infield coverage is covered. This happened at B National at OKC, U3 called the batter out at the same time PU made the safe signal. Eventually they got it right but should never have happened at that level.Agreed, its doubtful either of the other two umpires would be in a position to see it as clearly as plate umpire
Nowhere in the umpire manual does it say who has fly ball coverage in the infield either. I'm not disagreeing, I'm looking for it in black and white to shut down some of my fellow umpires that are blaming PU in play above for the confusion. Their belief, as well as the belief of some of the players involved in that play, is that because U3 is 15 feet from the play it's their call rather than PU. I've found nothing in writing that disagrees with that position.So who has fly ball coverage on the infield? Isn't this similar?
Nowhere in the umpire manual does it say who has fly ball coverage in the infield either. I'm not disagreeing, I'm looking for it in black and white to shut down some of my fellow umpires that are blaming PU in play above for the confusion. Their belief, as well as the belief of some of the players involved in that play, is that because U3 is 15 feet from the play it's their call rather than PU. I've found nothing in writing that disagrees with that position.
Depends entirely on the play. It would be entirely possible for U1 or U3 to have a better view of a catch no catch than PU depending on where the ball was hit, where the umpires were stationed and where the fielders are playing.the field umpires are behind the infielders, agree? So the plate umpire. Has the better view if ball is caught or short hopped, agree?
Rule 10 Section 2 Para C provides for the plate umpire and any other umpires to decide how they will handle calls on the playing field. They are empowered to provide a fair and equitable accounting of all plays during the game
Depends entirely on the play. It would be entirely possible for U1 or U3 to have a better view of a catch no catch than PU depending on where the ball was hit, where the umpires were stationed and where the fielders are playing.
There is no Rule 10.2.c. The entirety of Rule 10.2 states "Teams may not request a change of umpires during a game. No umpire may be replaced during a game unless incapacitated due to injury or illness."
Please do not quote a 16-year-old document. Things change out there, including mechanics.
Catch/no-catch is always the plate umpire’s job UNLESS a base umpire “goes out” to cover the play. In this case, no umpire is going out, so the call stays with the Plate Umpire.
Mechanics haven't changed since 1976? Now you're just full of it, ASA mechanics have changed since 2019. If you haven't been sanctioned since 1997 then you would have absolutely no idea what has changed in the last 24 years.Nothing relative to this responsibility or mechanics of umpiring has changed from my years as a sanctioned ASA umpire in NC from 1976 thru 1997 as well as a member of the NCHSAA (North Carolina High School Athletic Association) as a contributing member and high school umpire/referee during the same time period.
ASA Slowpitch 3 man, hot shot at F5. Whose got the catch/trap call, PU or U3?
I appreciate you wanting to help, but please make sure your references are current.Plate ump. Hope this answers the original post. I’m not here to argue, just to try to participate and maybe help from time to time.
I appreciate you wanting to help, but please make sure your references are current.
As for citing a rule, well… there is no rule regarding who has this call. That is a mechanic, not a rule.
I appreciate you wanting to help, but please make sure your references are current.
As for citing a rule, well… there is no rule regarding who has this call. That is a mechanic, not a rule.
Previously i used 2005 ASA Official Rulebook Umpire Edition. Rule 10 Section 2 Paragraph C. This is a 2005 edition manual and it lists 12 Rule Sections, Rule 10 for umpires, so there is a rule rather than a mechanic. I will also reference the 2020 USA/ASA Rulebook which also has 12 Rule Sections, Rule 10 again for umpires, so once again using a much more current Rule Book, there is a Rule 10 for umpires and not a mechanic.
Both references are entitled "Rule 10 Umpires, Section 1 Power and Duties" and both list as the responsibilities for the plate umpire to have the "power and duty" to decide how plays are to be called and by whom.
Going back to earlier posts that stated there was disagreement between some ASA players, or coaches, or even umpires, that there was not a written rule governing who calls line drives or even pop flys in the infield, Rule 10 Umpires, Section 1 Power and Duties fills the bill. The plate umpire shall decide before play begins.
Absolutely not. The responsibilities are clearly set in the Umpire Manual, not the rule book. The rule book only states that no umpire may set aside the judgment of another umpire who has made a call within their respective duties, but it does not state what those duties are - the umpire manual does.
And the plate umpire does not assign those responsibilities. That’s not their job.
No, that is not what 10.1 says. As has been pointed out to you many times in this thread, there is no longer a Rule 10.2.C so what was in the rulebook previously is not relevant. The only thing in 10.1 that mentions the plate umpire is the following: "The plate umpires shall have the authority to make decisions on any situations not specifically addressed in these rules." Duties and coverage are assigned in the umpire manual, although they can be changed by prior agreement of the umpires involved.If you will take the time to read the entire rule book, under RULE 10, both the 2005 Edition which i refer to often and the 2020 Edition, first paragraph it states that the HP umpire determines who makes what calls, in a discussion, with the 2nd and/or 3rd umpire prior to start of the game to prevent the situation of "two umps" making the same call which is what this entire forum thread is discussing. As to setting aside the judgment of another umpire, i never said that or alluded to that in any way. Please go back and read the earlier posts.
2005 ASA Official Rulebook Umpire Edition. Rule 10 Section 2 Paragraph C.
2020 USA/ASA Official Rulebook "Rule 10 Umpires, Section 1 Power and Duties"
No, that is not what 10.1 says. As has been pointed out to you many times in this thread, there is no longer a Rule 10.2.C so what was in the rulebook previously is not relevant. The only thing in 10.1 that mentions the plate umpire is the following: "The plate umpires shall have the authority to make decisions on any situations not specifically addressed in these rules." Duties and coverage are assigned in the umpire manual, although they can be changed by prior agreement of the umpires involved.
How much clearer can the wording be. You quoted his responsibilities and authority directly “ from the rule book”
if he’s by himself, of course he has every call. If he has one base ump, he decides if he has the line shot to first and third or if the base ump has the call. Once again, he decides, one ump makes the call and you don’t have the mess that was listed in the original post. Quit trying to make things difficult. If there is a new 2020 USA/ASA RULES OF THE GAME UMPIRE EDITION, Please share where to get one and I’ll discard my 2005 edition.
Of course there’s a new book. And the umpire manual is on the USA Softball website. You can read it there.
None of what you are saying is found anywhere in rule 10.1. Not a damn thing.
That quote is absolutely taken out of context. We’re not talking about a situation that isn’t covered by a rule. Nor are we talking about a situation in which a mechanic does not address a particular scenario. The Umpire Manual is 100% clear on whose call this is, period.The only thing in 10.1 that mentions the plate umpire is the following: "The plate umpires shall have the authority to make decisions on any situations not specifically addressed in these rules."
the above, EAJ copied directly out of the RULE BOOK. So if you and anyone else can't find anything that directly assigns duties for making a call, this quote from the RULE BOOK covers.
I sure hope this brings finality to the discussion, er maybe it should be call disagreement. I'm through
That quote is absolutely taken out of context. We’re not talking about a situation that isn’t covered by a rule. Nor are we talking about a situation in which a mechanic does not address a particular scenario. The Umpire Manual is 100% clear on whose call this is, period.
Seriously, you’re causing more confusion than you’re solving. Please stop.
Gladly.perfect, just give me the page number or section and paragraph in the 2020 umpire manual so I can brush up and shouldn’t make the same mistake again, thx
F. Helping on fly balls in foul territory between home and 1B or 3B:
It is permissible for Base Umpires to assist the PU on fly balls in foul territory when the BU starts on either foul line with no runner responsibilities AND the PU has an obstructed view of the fly ball. Reminder this is the PU’s call unless the BU turns their back to make the call.
Gladly.
In the 2021 manual, look on page 68, section F (bold emphasis is mine).
Unfortunately, this is the closest it currently comes to addressing it. In years past, the Umpire Manual explicitly said that the PU is responsible for batted balls within the infield, which would include catch/no catch. However, ASA/USA Softball has performed many reformattings of the Umpire Manual, and this section was not included in the latest revision. Seeing as how they take great care in spelling everything else out, I see this as an editorial oversight rather than a shift in coverage.
I'm 110% confident in my answer. This is how it's been for decades. If you really feel the need to argue this further (even though you said you were done), run it up the flagpole within USA Softball NC and let me know what you hear back.
I'll wait.
For kicks, I ran it up the flagpole. What did I hear back?
Plate umpire’s call.
/thread
The problem is that you’re stating that the plate umpire has authority where they do not, quoting rules that do not apply or exist. That’s where you’re creating a lot of confusion among players who are reading this thread.I agree and my very first post stated the same thing, “plate umpires call” but once again I’m confused why you prolong the back and forth.
I’m good with each and every one of your posts.