ASA Whose call?

EAJuggalo

Addicted to Softballfans
Agreed, its doubtful either of the other two umpires would be in a position to see it as clearly as plate umpire
I looked and couldn't find the exact responsibility in the Umpire manual, nothing about the infield coverage is covered. This happened at B National at OKC, U3 called the batter out at the same time PU made the safe signal. Eventually they got it right but should never have happened at that level.
 
lb16 is correct, the plate umpire has this call, see ASA 2005 Official Rules of Softball - Umpire Edition RULE 10 SECTION 2 PARA C

EAJ is correct, the rule goes into depth explaining that a pre-arranged agreement should be in place as to who(m) has the call.
 

EAJuggalo

Addicted to Softballfans
So who has fly ball coverage on the infield? Isn't this similar?
Nowhere in the umpire manual does it say who has fly ball coverage in the infield either. I'm not disagreeing, I'm looking for it in black and white to shut down some of my fellow umpires that are blaming PU in play above for the confusion. Their belief, as well as the belief of some of the players involved in that play, is that because U3 is 15 feet from the play it's their call rather than PU. I've found nothing in writing that disagrees with that position.
 
Nowhere in the umpire manual does it say who has fly ball coverage in the infield either. I'm not disagreeing, I'm looking for it in black and white to shut down some of my fellow umpires that are blaming PU in play above for the confusion. Their belief, as well as the belief of some of the players involved in that play, is that because U3 is 15 feet from the play it's their call rather than PU. I've found nothing in writing that disagrees with that position.

the field umpires are behind the infielders, agree? So the plate umpire. Has the better view if ball is caught or short hopped, agree?

Rule 10 Section 2 Para C provides for the plate umpire and any other umpires to decide how they will handle calls on the playing field. They are empowered to provide a fair and equitable accounting of all plays during the game
 

EAJuggalo

Addicted to Softballfans
the field umpires are behind the infielders, agree? So the plate umpire. Has the better view if ball is caught or short hopped, agree?

Rule 10 Section 2 Para C provides for the plate umpire and any other umpires to decide how they will handle calls on the playing field. They are empowered to provide a fair and equitable accounting of all plays during the game
Depends entirely on the play. It would be entirely possible for U1 or U3 to have a better view of a catch no catch than PU depending on where the ball was hit, where the umpires were stationed and where the fielders are playing.

There is no Rule 10.2.c. The entirety of Rule 10.2 states "Teams may not request a change of umpires during a game. No umpire may be replaced during a game unless incapacitated due to injury or illness."
 
Depends entirely on the play. It would be entirely possible for U1 or U3 to have a better view of a catch no catch than PU depending on where the ball was hit, where the umpires were stationed and where the fielders are playing.

There is no Rule 10.2.c. The entirety of Rule 10.2 states "Teams may not request a change of umpires during a game. No umpire may be replaced during a game unless incapacitated due to injury or illness."

EAJ. google ASA Official Rulebook Umpire Edition.
Reference Rule 10 Section 2 Paragraph C. It’s online, The entire book, I have a hard copy from years gone by, my copy is 2005.

I agree 100% that it is possible that the field umpires might possibly have a very good view of a catch or no catch, this paragraph doesn’t trump their ability to make a call, but it does allow for the umpires in the game to agree on who(m) makes the call, again, by prior discussion and agreement. This minimizes the problem in the original post of “both umps” making opposite calls on the same play.

Again, the original post, hot shot to third base, plate umpire is facing the fielder, his open glove, and the ball in flight. I contend again, he has the best view of the play as 3rd base ump is behind the 3rd baseman, the 1st base ump may have a good view of the play also, BUT the initial call is to be made by the umpire agreed upon between the umpires before the game started, hence the paragraph in the rule book.
 
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NCASAUmp

Un-Retired
Please do not quote a 16-year-old document. Things change out there, including mechanics.

Catch/no-catch is always the plate umpire’s job UNLESS a base umpire “goes out” to cover the play. In this case, no umpire is going out, so the call stays with the Plate Umpire.
 
Please do not quote a 16-year-old document. Things change out there, including mechanics.

Catch/no-catch is always the plate umpire’s job UNLESS a base umpire “goes out” to cover the play. In this case, no umpire is going out, so the call stays with the Plate Umpire.

I think you are in agreement with me that the call lies with the plate umpire, i reference the Umpire Edition simply to support my answer for the original poster. And please understand, you are free to reference a written rule, which you haven't, while i will answer and reference, typically with supporting documentation, in any manner i choose.

Nothing relative to this responsibility or mechanics of umpiring has changed from my years as a sanctioned ASA umpire in NC from 1976 thru 1997 as well as a member of the NCHSAA (North Carolina High School Athletic Association) as a contributing member and high school umpire/referee during the same time period.
 

EAJuggalo

Addicted to Softballfans
Nothing relative to this responsibility or mechanics of umpiring has changed from my years as a sanctioned ASA umpire in NC from 1976 thru 1997 as well as a member of the NCHSAA (North Carolina High School Athletic Association) as a contributing member and high school umpire/referee during the same time period.
Mechanics haven't changed since 1976? Now you're just full of it, ASA mechanics have changed since 2019. If you haven't been sanctioned since 1997 then you would have absolutely no idea what has changed in the last 24 years.

Moreover, since you couldn't be bothered to put in the actual wording of the rule you claim to cite that doesn't exist anymore, here is the old Rule 10.2.C "By agreement and in cooperation with the base umpire, makes decisions on plays, fair or foul balls and legally or illegally caught balls. On plays that necessitate the base umpire leaving the infield in a two umpire system, the plate umpire will assume the duties normally required of the base umpire." That does absolutely nothing to address the situation posted above, "by agreement and cooperation" means that you can go off manual if you've talked about it before, like PU taking the last runner into 3b instead of BU. What I want and is apparently not written anywhere that I've been able to find is who should have that call without "agreement and cooperation." I agree it is the PU's call, in USSSA it's written as the PU's call, I wanted something in writing.
 

NCASAUmp

Un-Retired
Plate ump. Hope this answers the original post. I’m not here to argue, just to try to participate and maybe help from time to time.
I appreciate you wanting to help, but please make sure your references are current.

As for citing a rule, well… there is no rule regarding who has this call. That is a mechanic, not a rule.
 
I appreciate you wanting to help, but please make sure your references are current.

As for citing a rule, well… there is no rule regarding who has this call. That is a mechanic, not a rule.
I appreciate you wanting to help, but please make sure your references are current.

As for citing a rule, well… there is no rule regarding who has this call. That is a mechanic, not a rule.

Previously i used 2005 ASA Official Rulebook Umpire Edition. Rule 10 Section 2 Paragraph C. This is a 2005 edition manual and it lists 12 Rule Sections, Rule 10 for umpires, so there is a rule rather than a mechanic. I will also reference the 2020 USA/ASA Rulebook which also has 12 Rule Sections, Rule 10 again for umpires, so once again using a much more current Rule Book, there is a Rule 10 for umpires and not a mechanic.

Both references are entitled "Rule 10 Umpires, Section 1 Power and Duties" and both list as the responsibilities for the plate umpire to have the "power and duty" to decide how plays are to be called and by whom.

Going back to earlier posts that stated there was disagreement between some ASA players, or coaches, or even umpires, that there was not a written rule governing who calls line drives or even pop flys in the infield, Rule 10 Umpires, Section 1 Power and Duties fills the bill. The plate umpire shall decide before play begins.
 
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NCASAUmp

Un-Retired
Previously i used 2005 ASA Official Rulebook Umpire Edition. Rule 10 Section 2 Paragraph C. This is a 2005 edition manual and it lists 12 Rule Sections, Rule 10 for umpires, so there is a rule rather than a mechanic. I will also reference the 2020 USA/ASA Rulebook which also has 12 Rule Sections, Rule 10 again for umpires, so once again using a much more current Rule Book, there is a Rule 10 for umpires and not a mechanic.

Both references are entitled "Rule 10 Umpires, Section 1 Power and Duties" and both list as the responsibilities for the plate umpire to have the "power and duty" to decide how plays are to be called and by whom.

Going back to earlier posts that stated there was disagreement between some ASA players, or coaches, or even umpires, that there was not a written rule governing who calls line drives or even pop flys in the infield, Rule 10 Umpires, Section 1 Power and Duties fills the bill. The plate umpire shall decide before play begins.

Absolutely not. The responsibilities are clearly set in the Umpire Manual, not the rule book. The rule book only states that no umpire may set aside the judgment of another umpire who has made a call within their respective duties, but it does not state what those duties are - the umpire manual does.

And the plate umpire does not assign those responsibilities. That’s not their job.
 
Absolutely not. The responsibilities are clearly set in the Umpire Manual, not the rule book. The rule book only states that no umpire may set aside the judgment of another umpire who has made a call within their respective duties, but it does not state what those duties are - the umpire manual does.

And the plate umpire does not assign those responsibilities. That’s not their job.

If you will take the time to read the entire rule book, under RULE 10, both the 2005 Edition which i refer to often and the 2020 Edition, first paragraph it states that the HP umpire determines who makes what calls, in a discussion, with the 2nd and/or 3rd umpire prior to start of the game to prevent the situation of "two umps" making the same call which is what this entire forum thread is discussing. As to setting aside the judgment of another umpire, i never said that or alluded to that in any way. Please go back and read the earlier posts.

2005 ASA Official Rulebook Umpire Edition. Rule 10 Section 2 Paragraph C.
2020 USA/ASA Official Rulebook "Rule 10 Umpires, Section 1 Power and Duties"
 

EAJuggalo

Addicted to Softballfans
If you will take the time to read the entire rule book, under RULE 10, both the 2005 Edition which i refer to often and the 2020 Edition, first paragraph it states that the HP umpire determines who makes what calls, in a discussion, with the 2nd and/or 3rd umpire prior to start of the game to prevent the situation of "two umps" making the same call which is what this entire forum thread is discussing. As to setting aside the judgment of another umpire, i never said that or alluded to that in any way. Please go back and read the earlier posts.

2005 ASA Official Rulebook Umpire Edition. Rule 10 Section 2 Paragraph C.
2020 USA/ASA Official Rulebook "Rule 10 Umpires, Section 1 Power and Duties"
No, that is not what 10.1 says. As has been pointed out to you many times in this thread, there is no longer a Rule 10.2.C so what was in the rulebook previously is not relevant. The only thing in 10.1 that mentions the plate umpire is the following: "The plate umpires shall have the authority to make decisions on any situations not specifically addressed in these rules." Duties and coverage are assigned in the umpire manual, although they can be changed by prior agreement of the umpires involved.
 
No, that is not what 10.1 says. As has been pointed out to you many times in this thread, there is no longer a Rule 10.2.C so what was in the rulebook previously is not relevant. The only thing in 10.1 that mentions the plate umpire is the following: "The plate umpires shall have the authority to make decisions on any situations not specifically addressed in these rules." Duties and coverage are assigned in the umpire manual, although they can be changed by prior agreement of the umpires involved.

How much clearer can the wording be. You quoted his responsibilities and authority directly “ from the rule book”

if he’s by himself, of course he has every call. If he has one base ump, he decides if he has the line shot to first and third or if the base ump has the call. Once again, he decides, one ump makes the call and you don’t have the mess that was listed in the original post. Quit trying to make things difficult. If there is a new 2020 USA/ASA RULES OF THE GAME UMPIRE EDITION, Please share where to get one and I’ll discard my 2005 edition.
 

NCASAUmp

Un-Retired
How much clearer can the wording be. You quoted his responsibilities and authority directly “ from the rule book”

if he’s by himself, of course he has every call. If he has one base ump, he decides if he has the line shot to first and third or if the base ump has the call. Once again, he decides, one ump makes the call and you don’t have the mess that was listed in the original post. Quit trying to make things difficult. If there is a new 2020 USA/ASA RULES OF THE GAME UMPIRE EDITION, Please share where to get one and I’ll discard my 2005 edition.

Of course there’s a new book. And the umpire manual is on the USA Softball website. You can read it there.

None of what you are saying is found anywhere in rule 10.1. Not a damn thing.
 
Of course there’s a new book. And the umpire manual is on the USA Softball website. You can read it there.

None of what you are saying is found anywhere in rule 10.1. Not a damn thing.


The only thing in 10.1 that mentions the plate umpire is the following: "The plate umpires shall have the authority to make decisions on any situations not specifically addressed in these rules."

the above, EAJ copied directly out of the RULE BOOK. So if you and anyone else can't find anything that directly assigns duties for making a call, this quote from the RULE BOOK covers.

I sure hope this brings finality to the discussion, er maybe it should be call disagreement. I'm through
 

NCASAUmp

Un-Retired
The only thing in 10.1 that mentions the plate umpire is the following: "The plate umpires shall have the authority to make decisions on any situations not specifically addressed in these rules."

the above, EAJ copied directly out of the RULE BOOK. So if you and anyone else can't find anything that directly assigns duties for making a call, this quote from the RULE BOOK covers.

I sure hope this brings finality to the discussion, er maybe it should be call disagreement. I'm through
That quote is absolutely taken out of context. We’re not talking about a situation that isn’t covered by a rule. Nor are we talking about a situation in which a mechanic does not address a particular scenario. The Umpire Manual is 100% clear on whose call this is, period.

Seriously, you’re causing more confusion than you’re solving. Please stop.
 
That quote is absolutely taken out of context. We’re not talking about a situation that isn’t covered by a rule. Nor are we talking about a situation in which a mechanic does not address a particular scenario. The Umpire Manual is 100% clear on whose call this is, period.

Seriously, you’re causing more confusion than you’re solving. Please stop.

perfect, just give me the page number or section and paragraph in the 2020 umpire manual so I can brush up and shouldn’t make the same mistake again, thx
 

NCASAUmp

Un-Retired
perfect, just give me the page number or section and paragraph in the 2020 umpire manual so I can brush up and shouldn’t make the same mistake again, thx
Gladly.
In the 2021 manual, look on page 68, section F (bold emphasis is mine).

F. Helping on fly balls in foul territory between home and 1B or 3B:
It is permissible for Base Umpires to assist the PU on fly balls in foul territory when the BU starts on either foul line with no runner responsibilities AND the PU has an obstructed view of the fly ball. Reminder this is the PU’s call unless the BU turns their back to make the call.

Unfortunately, this is the closest it currently comes to addressing it. In years past, the Umpire Manual explicitly said that the PU is responsible for batted balls within the infield, which would include catch/no catch. However, ASA/USA Softball has performed many reformattings of the Umpire Manual, and this section was not included in the latest revision. Seeing as how they take great care in spelling everything else out, I see this as an editorial oversight rather than a shift in coverage.

I'm 110% confident in my answer. This is how it's been for decades. If you really feel the need to argue this further (even though you said you were done), run it up the flagpole within USA Softball NC and let me know what you hear back.

I'll wait.
 
Gladly.
In the 2021 manual, look on page 68, section F (bold emphasis is mine).



Unfortunately, this is the closest it currently comes to addressing it. In years past, the Umpire Manual explicitly said that the PU is responsible for batted balls within the infield, which would include catch/no catch. However, ASA/USA Softball has performed many reformattings of the Umpire Manual, and this section was not included in the latest revision. Seeing as how they take great care in spelling everything else out, I see this as an editorial oversight rather than a shift in coverage.

I'm 110% confident in my answer. This is how it's been for decades. If you really feel the need to argue this further (even though you said you were done), run it up the flagpole within USA Softball NC and let me know what you hear back.

I'll wait.

No Boss, i'll copy my note again as i said that i was fine with your answer, not sure why you insist on stating that i want to prolong this discussion further with an argument -

"perfect, just give me the page number or section and paragraph in the 2020 umpire manual so I can brush up and shouldn’t make the same mistake again, thx"
 

NCASAUmp

Un-Retired
I just did.

Listen, I appreciate your willingness to help, but you’re barking up the wrong tree. Time after time, you’ve given wrong answer after wrong answer, and this is no exception. Stop creating more confusion on this site, no one’s listening to you anyway.
 

NCASAUmp

Un-Retired
I agree and my very first post stated the same thing, “plate umpires call” but once again I’m confused why you prolong the back and forth.

I’m good with each and every one of your posts.
The problem is that you’re stating that the plate umpire has authority where they do not, quoting rules that do not apply or exist. That’s where you’re creating a lot of confusion among players who are reading this thread.
 
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