Why doesnt Rawlings use the old stiff leather anymore?

[NYC]

Was talking with a rawlings sales rep. Kind of a a weird conversation. Basically I asked if any gloves still use the stiff horween old school leather. She said only the dual core uses it but they soak it in oil and they don't use the old stiff leather. I asked why, she said. "There are more than a few reasons but unfortunately we can't tell you because they are trade secrets".

LOL, well that was strange. They obviously still have access to the leather since they still use horween on some of their models. So what can it be? I'm guessing they don't want your gloves lasting 20 years, they want your gloves to get floppy/crappy and have you go back and buy a new glove in a year or 2.

 

[Soxfan8]

Was talking with a rawlings sales rep. Kind of a a weird conversation. Basically I asked if any gloves still use the stiff horween old school leather. She said only the dual core uses it but they soak it in oil and they don't use the old stiff leather. I asked why, she said. "There are more than a few reasons but unfortunately we can't tell you because they are trade secrets".

LOL, well that was strange. They obviously still have access to the leather since they still use horween on some of their models. So what can it be? I'm guessing they don't want your gloves lasting 20 years, they want your gloves to get floppy/crappy and have you go back and buy a new glove in a year or 2.

The sentiments expressed in this forum probably do not represent the general glove buying public, who wants something that can be broken in quickly.

But, I have no complaints about the quality of the HOH leather (traditional colors) that Rawlings has been using recently.

 

[beeblebobble]

Was talking with a rawlings sales rep. Kind of a a weird conversation. Basically I asked if any gloves still use the stiff horween old school leather. She said only the dual core uses it but they soak it in oil and they don't use the old stiff leather. I asked why, she said. "There are more than a few reasons but unfortunately we can't tell you because they are trade secrets".

LOL, well that was strange. They obviously still have access to the leather since they still use horween on some of their models. So what can it be? I'm guessing they don't want your gloves lasting 20 years, they want your gloves to get floppy/crappy and have you go back and buy a new glove in a year or 2.

Market Demand. Gloves that are "game ready" sell better than "old stiff leather"

 

[Rous]

Yep. Not enough people wants a glove that stiff to make it worth making them. But I'd like to add that the dual core leather is not the good stuff soaked in oil, bit an entirely diiferent Horween leather. Bart at GS got some of the Featherlite to try out and hated it. Said bend area was ok, soft, but the belly area was spongy and only suitable for palm pads.

 

[bigmac25]

This has been discussed and answered a bagillion times both on here and GW.
Bob C mentioned that Mizuno may have started this in the 80s when they were getting their soft leather into the hands of players.
Father takes son into store for a new glove and son will prob pick the almost broken in glove 10/10 times...
And we are such a small part of the glove culture as well. They dont really market to glove enthuisats/collectors.
The are in the glove business and they need to stay with the times. The trend is gloves that are almost ready to go and had they not have changed and somehow still managed to be a top player they'd probably be look at as being behind the times.
Mortons was one of the few if not the only retailer offering these old style leather gloves and before the glove flipping trend started...it was said they took a COUPLE YEARS to sell out... and that was with what is probably very low production numbers already.
The 30 under guys on here dig it and appreciate it, and the older guys have used the usa ones for the majority of their lives....but the majority of people just dont care. A glove is a glove.
Players have access to so many gloves they probably dont care much either.
It may be cheaper as well.. i have no clue there.
We are lucky we have the options we do, but remember we are going to be in the minority more often than not. If it doesn't make good business sense, it probably wouldnt happen. Thats not a trade secret, its just common sense.

Sidebar... Things have been slow as of late on here, but you and I joined roughly the same time. I dont know if you just like talking gloves or what, but as newbies we should take it upon our selves to do a bit of research before posting a question like this. Between the search function here and on GW there are literally 50 topics discussing the reasons, theories, and actual info provided by Bob that acts as a sufficient answer to your question. I can see where it would get old to answer the same question over and over whenever that weeks new person comes on here and asks. Any topic you can think of from leather, marketing, trends, models of the last 10 yrs can be found with just a click of the search. If we do this, then we will be taken seriously, so when we actually do have a question we can not find we can ask and get the answer rather than have the vets sick of answering our questions. Just a suggestion, but if your itching to take part in glove talks just go back a hundred pages and skim. It'll give you your fix I promise. Or, just search horween for example and browse the topics that could pertain to the info you want. You could say you've done that, but if that was the case- I'd have no business answering this question because we'd have essentially read the same stuff.

 

[NYC]

I bet if it was advertised more, parents would buy their kids the stiff gloves because they last longer. But then again Rawlings won't make money selling you 1 glove every 10 years.

 

[bigmac25]

good talk...:banghead:

logic is correct on the purchases, but that wasnt an issue before. That being said the way the market is now people have multiple gloves and even teammates who dont care about gloves like we do still replace their before they actually need to just for something different. Back in the day you had a glove and that was your glove... maybe a 1b mitt or catchers mitt as well if so inclined but you used it until it was a pancake.
I think you are wrong... the current ways of the market back that up.
Dont get me wrong I prefer the old stuff, but its the way it is for a reason.
Again, this has all been discussed in great detail in other places and if the answers people provide still dont provide you the answer you want put a bit of time in and search

 

[NYC]

good talk...:banghead:

logic is correct on the purchases, but that wasnt an issue before. That being said the way the market is now people have multiple gloves and even teammates who dont care about gloves like we do still replace their before they actually need to just for something different. Back in the day you had a glove and that was your glove... maybe a 1b mitt or catchers mitt as well if so inclined but you used it until it was a pancake.
I think you are wrong... the current ways of the market back that up.
Dont get me wrong I prefer the old stuff, but its the way it is for a reason.
Again, this has all been discussed in great detail in other places and if the answers people provide still dont provide you the answer you want put a bit of time in and search

relax man, I only posted this because I thought it was weird that she replied with "It's a secret".

 

[jb_onethree]

That's cause she doesn't know just cause she's a rep doesn't mean she knows anything about the product. Especially old product. I can probably guarantee she has no idea about horween. The codes, the company, or when and who used it

 

[NYC]

That's cause she doesn't know just cause she's a rep doesn't mean she knows anything about the product. Especially old product. I can probably guarantee she has no idea about horween. The codes, the company, or when and who used it

Sounded like she did, when I asked about the Horween models she right away said "If you're looking for the old school stiff horween gloves, we don't make that anymore, I believe only one online retailer still sells them" (dm).

Again, the only reason I posted this was she actually said "it's a trade secret".
Just sounded strange to me, if it's because kids want a glove that breaks in fast, then thats not really a secret. Led me to believe there was something more to the story. Which is why I thought I'd post this conspiracy theory that they don't want your gloves lasting you 10 years, they want repeat business.
Does anyone know when Rawlings was acquired by Jarden Inc.? Cant seem to find it online.

 

[2TransAms]

I bet if it was advertised more, parents would buy their kids the stiff gloves because they last longer. But then again Rawlings won't make money selling you 1 glove every 10 years.

It's a throw-away society. Spend $250-300 on a glove that lasts forever or spend $60 and just get another one when it craps out. You know how many people actually buy high end gloves? Not many.

 

[NYC]

It's a throw-away society. Spend $250-300 on a glove that lasts forever or spend $60 and just get another one when it craps out. You know how many people actually buy high end gloves? Not many.

You're right, but I would at least think they could cater to us who buy high end gloves a bit more. Even have them be available by special order or something, just have it be available. We are willing to pay. I know I am, and many of you guys are too.

 

[bigmac25]

relax man, I only posted this because I thought it was weird that she replied with "It's a secret".

Im by no means worked up. I ended it with a smile. My only point was what i mentioned earlier. People seem annoyed by newbs, so someone as active as you and to a bit lesser extent I should really take the time to educate ourselves if we can to earn the respect to be taken seriously. You may have gotten lucky and got an educted rep. Theres a guy who frequents here as well as GW and really does know his stuff. Anyone else ive ever spoken to at rawlings in regard to product and warranties only knew about currenr stuff becuase they could pull product info and maybe they have canned responses for older inquiries. Im good at my job and on top if things, but i cant speak to things that were done or released 10 yrs ago unless ive heard things and even then its only hear say. No one wants to say they dont kniw and sound unintelligent, so she (pure speculation) probably came up with something that sounded good and apparently to you it did. My only thing is this had been asked of Bob who from what ive read was the only real inside source and was very helpful and knowledgeable. He didnt seem to ever give anyone a reason to doubt him and with all the threads, discussion and speculation that pertains to this subject im sure it would have come up prior to you calling rawlings. In no way was i trying to be disrespectful to you, i was simply saying that in order to garner a bit more respect for newbs in general at least pretend to make it look like youd searched for the answer prior to asking. By all means everyone has to start somewhere and I myself and very much still learning but if you are truly interested as ypu seem to be, youve got all this great source material going years back at your fingertips. Why not take advantage?

 

[bigmac25]

You're right, but I would at least think they could cater to us who buy high end gloves a bit more. Even have them be available by special order or something, just have it be available. We are willing to pay. I know I am, and many of you guys are too.

Isnt this essentially what eastbays slcs was? It seemed everyone knew it was a dying breed. If it made sense financially for them to continue, as great as he eas im sure Bob isnt the only one on earth capable of making a custom glove. Im sure it could have continued in some way shape or form if they so desired. They didnt, and id imagine $ was a driving factor.

 

[Rous]

The SLCS made about $100 per glove (assuming the only cost was labor and materials) and they made a few per week. Even at 250 gloves per year, that $25,000 in profit had to cover Bob's time and the space at Rawlings. Rawlings did it because Bob was a treasure. Now that he is gone, it is dead.

 

[NYC]

The SLCS made about $100 per glove (assuming the only cost was labor and materials) and they made a few per week. Even at 250 gloves per year, that $25,000 in profit had to cover Bob's time and the space at Rawlings. Rawlings did it because Bob was a treasure. Now that he is gone, it is dead.

what a shame, but all good things come to an end.

 

[bigmac25]

The SLCS made about $100 per glove (assuming the only cost was labor and materials) and they made a few per week. Even at 250 gloves per year, that $25,000 in profit had to cover Bob's time and the space at Rawlings. Rawlings did it because Bob was a treasure. Now that he is gone, it is dead.

You just won the thread. Proof, answer, and explination in less than 50 words. Thanks again Rous!!

 

[smarkley3]

You're right, but I would at least think they could cater to us who buy high end gloves a bit more. Even have them be available by special order or something, just have it be available. We are willing to pay. I know I am, and many of you guys are too.

The way the market is today were lucky anyone even offers a mid crappy range glove above 12.75"

 

[clementeunknown]

I would say the reason they use flimsy leather is $$$$$. If Rawlings sells gloves with the stiff high quality leather, assuming the user cares for the glove on a regular basis, the glove would last 10 years on average so that kind of cuts into profit. If the player has to but a new glove every other year that is more money for Rawlings

 

[NYC]

I would say the reason they use flimsy leather is $$$$$. If Rawlings sells gloves with the stiff high quality leather, assuming the user cares for the glove on a regular basis, the glove would last 10 years on average so that kind of cuts into profit. If the player has to but a new glove every other year that is more money for Rawlings

yes I completely agree,.

 

[smarkley3]

I would say the reason they use flimsy leather is $$$$$. If Rawlings sells gloves with the stiff high quality leather, assuming the user cares for the glove on a regular basis, the glove would last 10 years on average so that kind of cuts into profit. If the player has to but a new glove every other year that is more money for Rawlings

It may have been the original idea and leather cost keep going up but its gone past that now. Most casual slow pitch players expect all gloves to be game ready and cant handle any type of stiff glove that requires break in. It is really sad.

 

[2TransAms]

The casual players, the guys who play beer league or coed once a week and have no inclination to do anything else, outnumber "serious" players by what, at least 1000:1? I don't think I'm too far off. But part of it is that they "don't know what they don't know." A glove is just a glove right? What's the difference between an A2000 and a Walmart rag? Who cares, it's a glove, they all do the same thing. So with most people using that as their buying philosophy, Rawlings and everyone else is wise to make entry level gloves by the truckload.

 

[Rous]

I would say the reason they use flimsy leather is $$$$$. If Rawlings sells gloves with the stiff high quality leather, assuming the user cares for the glove on a regular basis, the glove would last 10 years on average so that kind of cuts into profit. If the player has to but a new glove every other year that is more money for Rawlings

This is one of those economic fallacies I like to debunk in class (like light bulbs could be made to last forever, but they don't make them because people wouldn't need replacements).

If it would take $10 to make the glove last twice as long, so long as people are willing to pay at least $11 for a longer lasting glove, it increases profits to make a longer lasting glove. I think that for a lot of players, they are not willing to pay that extra $10 for the better made glove. Failing to follow this profit maximizing strategy means your competitors that are smart enough to understand it will gain market share.

But here is the real interesting economic issue. The difference in materials and other production costs between a lowest end Rawlings and the new $500 Gold Glove line is probably $60-$80, but there is a $470 difference in advertized prices. This discrepancy is where marketing, strategic behavior and what economists call price discrimination come to play. But I don't want to get into lecture mode during the summer!

 

[yardballz]

Since up until recently you could buy a code 55 tulo or weiters glove not to mention all the code 55 pro stock models available on that site where you can get rawlings gear and the super stiff oxblood horween gloves that were available unless you think that it took rawlings 100 years to figure out that softer leather gloves wear out more quickly and could increase their sales the conspiracy theory of softer gloves = more sales is pretty silly.

 

[Soxfan8]

I am not sure that glove companies are banking on more sales by using lesser quality leather. Like a lot of industries, glove companies are coming out with new colors and editions, in this case, to spur players to try something else (because it looks cool), but not because their current glove(s) are worn out. And, it's not like Code 55 doesn't have drawbacks.

 

[bigmac25]

Since up until recently you could buy a code 55 tulo or weiters glove not to mention all the code 55 pro stock models available on that site where you can get rawlings gear and the super stiff oxblood horween gloves that were available unless you think that it took rawlings 100 years to figure out that softer leather gloves wear out more quickly and could increase their sales the conspiracy theory of softer gloves = more sales is pretty silly.

Yardballz is back!!!!

 

[bigmac25]

I am not sure that glove companies are banking on more sales by using lesser quality leather. Like a lot of industries, glove companies are coming out with new colors and editions, in this case, to spur players to try something else (because it looks cool), but not because their current glove(s) are worn out. And, it's not like Code 55 doesn't have drawbacks.

Very true. It seems that people sometimes have the thought process if its not horween, its not good. Although i was not impressed w the ak2 hoh leather i liked the jap tan stuff and the custom leather as well. People tend to look for the nostalgia and a horween glove may to do it for them. We all have preferences, which is why so many brands, colors, patterns, leathers and sizes exist.In the early 2000s, people may have complained that the horween was too stiff etc. Grass is always greener. Ya can never make everyone happy and they had to keep up w the Jones's. Just food for thought, but if they didnt conform to market trends they might have not been a top player anymore. As has been mentioned numerous times, its a throw away society.

 

[NYC]

Very true. It seems that people sometimes have the thought process if its not horween, its not good. Although i was not impressed w the ak2 hoh leather i liked the jap tan stuff and the custom leather as well. People tend to look for the nostalgia and a horween glove may to do it for them. We all have preferences, which is why so many brands, colors, patterns, leathers and sizes exist.In the early 2000s, people may have complained that the horween was too stiff etc. Grass is always greener. Ya can never make everyone happy and they had to keep up w the Jones's. Just food for thought, but if they didnt conform to market trends they might have not been a top player anymore. As has been mentioned numerous times, its a throw away society.

There is some new kind of leather thats on my new protb24b, its unlike any leather I felt before. Its sort of "tumbled", very high quality feel. Honestly it feels way better than any horween I felt before. The leather is not shiny smooth like most HOH are , its sort of wrinkly if you look real close. I don't have a picture of mine, but theres a photo on this site of the same glove. I think his is way more used but if you look closely maybe you'll get an idea of what I mean by "tumbled" leather.

EDIT: couldn't get the picture to load. sorry.

 

[faultinourwalt]

What's the difference between an A2000 and a Walmart rag?

A Wal-Mart rag is useful

 

[MaverickAH]

First of all, the primary market for glove companies is baseball. It is not & never has been softball. Let's just get that out of the way.........

Now within the baseball market, their primary focus is youth, teenage & young adult. Those are the markets that engender brand loyalty & repeat buyers. They are the market that the glove companies cater to. In this age of travel ball, parents aren't looking to spend money on a glove that their kid can't use for a year or outgrow before it's game ready. That's the reality of the situation. Softer leather that can be game ready quicker sells.

This board is an anomaly & not the norm. I saw something just yesterday that was discussing how this age of the internet made it much easier to find like minded people no matter what the particular interest was. This ability of finding people with the same interest gives the false illusion of normalcy even though the actual reality is that the interest is only held by a small minority of the population & not in the mainstream. The vast majority of adult softball players have one glove (< $100), play a limited amount of games per year(~20-25), have a limited playing span (< 10 years) & never purchase another glove. This is not a market generally targeted by glove companies.