2024 Rule Changes

[EAJuggalo]

Had a meeting last night where the new rule changes for next year were laid out:

Courtesy runner can be anyone on the roster. Previously the runner had to be in the line up.

Penalties for throwing in an illegal ball: First time is a warning, subsequent incidents result in the batter being called out and the manager being ejected. This only applies if it's caught before a pitch is thrown.

Foul tip: Changed the rule that anything that doesn't clear the batter's head is a foul tip. Awaiting clarification on what happens if it hits a part of the catcher other than the glove or hand first.

Clarified that the ball is live until it touches the ground or something in foul territory. It is legal to hit a pitch on a bounce. Batters can be called out for a bunt in these situations. So don't try to tap the ball back to the pitcher, catcher or grab the ball if it bounces up.

 

[ilyk2win]

Foul tip: Changed the rule that anything that doesn't clear the batter's head is a foul tip. Awaiting clarification on what happens if it hits a part of the catcher other than the glove or hand first.

Weird change IMO. If you're bad enough to hit the ball backwards and it's caught, IDC how high the ball goes (or even how it's caught), you should be out. Speaking in terms of slow pitch only of course.

 

[jbo911]

Had a meeting last night where the new rule changes for next year were laid out:

Courtesy runner can be anyone on the roster. Previously the runner had to be in the line up.

Penalties for throwing in an illegal ball: First time is a warning, subsequent incidents result in the batter being called out and the manager being ejected. This only applies if it's caught before a pitch is thrown.

Foul tip: Changed the rule that anything that doesn't clear the batter's head is a foul tip. Awaiting clarification on what happens if it hits a part of the catcher other than the glove or hand first.

Clarified that the ball is live until it touches the ground or something in foul territory. It is legal to hit a pitch on a bounce. Batters can be called out for a bunt in these situations. So don't try to tap the ball back to the pitcher, catcher or grab the ball if it bounces up.

I was hoping for more. Is this it?

Am I reading that right that there is no penalty for an illegal bat if I don't catch it before I throw a pitch? That is insane. Also, why isn't the batter ejected?

I always thought foul balls were only an out if it went above the batters head. What was the old rule?

 

[EAJuggalo]

I was hoping for more. Is this it?

Am I reading that right that there is no penalty for an illegal bat if I don't catch it before I throw a pitch? That is insane. Also, why isn't the batter ejected?

I always thought foul balls were only an out if it went above the batters head. What was the old rule?

Illegal ball, not bat. Stepping into the box with an illegal bat is an out and ejection of the batter at any time.
The old rule for foul tips was that the ball had to go "sharply and directly" from the bat to the catcher's hand or glove. If the ball had any arc on it or the catcher had to move the glove or hand to catch the ball it was an out. Many players, coaches and directors were confused by the rule and many have interpreted it this way for a long time. My guess is that is why the change was made.
The only other changes were incredibly minor things, changing double re-entry in the GSL book to read double entry. Specifying that Mixed home run limits were per gender and removing the taking a proper position to receive a thrown ball from the definition of obstruction after removing it from the actual rule last year.

 

[TWmccoy]

I think the hard core Pro M will eventually get banned, even though they just released it.

USSSA is eventually going to have to tackle the ball/bat problem. Hard cores and 240 bats is NOT a good solution. Might as well allow 220s again.

 

[ilyk2win]

I think the hard core Pro M will eventually get banned, even though they just released it.

USSSA is eventually going to have to tackle the ball/bat problem. Hard cores and 240 bats is NOT a good solution. Might as well allow 220s again.

The best solution is to make bats meet a certain weight so that not EVERYONE has max "bat speed." Or go baseball and make a -3 drop. So you want to swing a 24oz bat, no probelm, so long as it's no longer than 27". Yes I am old and yes I prefer heavier bats. If you're too weak to swing a 30oz bat (usually after coming from baseball where that was normal) then you aren't a "power" hitter.

 

[TWmccoy]

The best solution is to make bats meet a certain weight so that not EVERYONE has max "bat speed." Or go baseball and make a -3 drop. So you want to swing a 24oz bat, no probelm, so long as it's no longer than 27". Yes I am old and yes I prefer heavier bats. If you're too weak to swing a 30oz bat (usually after coming from baseball where that was normal) then you aren't a "power" hitter.

I agree with this completely. I've even suggested such things to the limp wristed panty waists I play softball with, all of whom swing 25-26 oz bats. The thought of a -3 length to weight ratio horrifies them.

I don't think someone who has no athletic talent or strength should be able to get by just because they're using a red hot 25 oz lightning rod and hitting rock hard balls.

I don't know if I'd go as far as -3 ratio, but I'd make the MINIMUM weight of slowpitch bats 28 oz. Here in CO you might see 1 in 100 guys swinging 28s.

Furthermore, if I were USSSA I would go back to C+ balls and eliminate the Pro and classic Ms entirely. If the C+ is too bouncy, engineer something similar that isn't. C+ balls are good in that they perform the same across all temperature levels and don't destroy bats in cold weather. C+ balls are also surprisingly good in nasty, sticky weather where other balls won't do anything.

Hard core Pro Ms would be fine if we were swinging much deader bats.

 

[jbo911]

I used to think y'all were crazy, but that would solve a lot of problems. I'd like to see the max barrel length be 12".

My problem with hard cores is they were designed to fool the test. Letting them back in because they're an incremental increase is a bad precedent. If you want an incremental increase then allow it without allowing something that should've never been allowed to begin with back in. This is like allowing roles bats because you think 240s are too dead. What message did that send?

I agree that they should remove the classic m. I'd the c+ is too bouncy bring on a 48/325, or whatever is the best compromise , then ditch the pro m as well. Or keep the hard core pro m to replace the stadium.

 

[EAJuggalo]

It will never be a C+ dominant sanction. It's too close to USA and the .52/300. I've been hearing for a little bit some rumblings that USA might get out of the slow pitch game, if that happens I could definitely see a move for C and below. Both the current Slow Pitch National Director and National Director of Officials spent a lot of time with ASA/USA before coming to USSSA. I would say almost no chance of using anything less than a Pro M for B and above though.

 

[TWmccoy]

I used to think y'all were crazy, but that would solve a lot of problems. I'd like to see the max barrel length be 12".

My problem with hard cores is they were designed to fool the test. Letting them back in because they're an incremental increase is a bad precedent. If you want an incremental increase then allow it without allowing something that should've never been allowed to begin with back in. This is like allowing roles bats because you think 240s are too dead. What message did that send?

I agree that they should remove the classic m. I'd the c+ is too bouncy bring on a 48/325, or whatever is the best compromise , then ditch the pro m as well. Or keep the hard core pro m to replace the stadium.

I think it's funny that USSSA designed a new ball (hard core) to fool THEIR OWN ball compression testing protocols.

If you remember years ago they had Thunder Advances that were USSSA, NSA, and ASA legal. All those sanctions later said no to multilayer balls for the obvious reason that they are not in fact 375 compression. IDK what exactly a hard core tests at without the cover, but I wouldn't be surprised if the core is 500 compression.

I have no problem with stadiums or hard core Pro Ms being used on full sized fields (like in Viera). However, those balls are ludicrously dumb on shorter fields.

Here in CO all the teams were using hard cores by the end of this season (you can use whichever Pro M you want here). It immediately ruined the game. I mean, it's already plenty easy to hit HRs here with pretty much any bat/ball combo. Bringing on Pro Ms was a poor idea.

 

[TWmccoy]

It will never be a C+ dominant sanction. It's too close to USA and the .52/300. I've been hearing for a little bit some rumblings that USA might get out of the slow pitch game, if that happens I could definitely see a move for C and below. Both the current Slow Pitch National Director and National Director of Officials spent a lot of time with ASA/USA before coming to USSSA. I would say almost no chance of using anything less than a Pro M for B and above though.

I don't think players should use different balls based on skill level. If anything I'd like to see upper softball (USSSA conference) use deader balls than everyone else. If these guys really are the best players in the nation they'll get by with whichever rag ball is in there. I mean, it isn't like the bats aren't hot already...

I remember the old days when USSSA had 3 legal balls. Major (.40/300), Elite (.44/400), and Distance (.47/500). Major tournies always used the major ball, and most other people used elites. Distance was used on full sized fields (those balls were hot AF, BTW).

IDK, I just feel like USSSA has had a massive shift in equipment over the last few years that has not left the game looking very good. The bats AND balls got WAY hotter despite going from 220 to 240 bats. I mean, what was the point of enacting a new (deader) bat standard only to introduce some of the hottest balls anyone's ever seen?

Frankly, I think ASA bats now are too hot as well. Even with .52 300s it's 375' bombs all day long, and the bats do all the work. Literally zero skill involved in hitting anymore.

 

[EAJuggalo]

You won't change B and above because Conference really runs that level. The teams vote on the rule changes and the teams and sponsors want the hardest balls possible for marketing purposes. You may be able to get the lower to change. FWIW, I agree with you and everything should be Classic+, especially the Conference, but it won't happen as long as the current people are involved. The HardCore was designed to be used on 325+ fields only. The fact that directors are allowing them at least partially on the directors. They have the ability to limit the legal balls in their tournaments to whatever they would like. HardCores were not allowed in IL.

 

[ilyk2win]

^^^ that's society in a nutshell today though; instant gratification. Dumb things down and make overachieving harder, people will find other hobbies where they can be a Superstar. Technology is "aiding" in many hobbies.....tennis, bowling, golf, etc. The only difference IMO, is that technology in softball has made it dangerous for many players (P & infielders).

 

[TWmccoy]

You won't change B and above because Conference really runs that level. The teams vote on the rule changes and the teams and sponsors want the hardest balls possible for marketing purposes. You may be able to get the lower to change. FWIW, I agree with you and everything should be Classic+, especially the Conference, but it won't happen as long as the current people are involved. The HardCore was designed to be used on 325+ fields only. The fact that directors are allowing them at least partially on the directors. They have the ability to limit the legal balls in their tournaments to whatever they would like. HardCores were not allowed in IL.

Even on 325' fields in Viera the hard core was too much. I talked to all sorts of dudes who played A and B worlds there, and they said the balls were hotter than stadiums, and teams were blowing through all their HRs too quickly and mis hitting all sorts of balls out.

I hate to say it, but I'm almost missing the days when they used ZN classic Ms there and no one was going yard. You really felt like a man when you got one of those balls out of there.

I hope our CO state director does something about hard cores being used in state, but I doubt he well. There would be too much whining from lower teams/players.

 

[jbo911]

I don't think the hard cores are hotter than those old syco classic Ms. If they are, it's negligible and only above certain temps. Those balls were insanely hot. At least in the temps below 60.

At least not up here, which is my second problem with the lower cor too.

 

[jbo911]

^^^ that's society in a nutshell today though; instant gratification. Dumb things down and make overachieving harder, people will find other hobbies where they can be a Superstar. Technology is "aiding" in many hobbies.....tennis, bowling, golf, etc. The only difference IMO, is that technology in softball has made it dangerous for many players (P & infielders).

You're exactly right, and that used to be why I played softball. To get away from that. It used to separate the men from the boys. Now it just highlights the haves and the have nots.

 

[jbo911]

You won't change B and above because Conference really runs that level. The teams vote on the rule changes and the teams and sponsors want the hardest balls possible for marketing purposes. You may be able to get the lower to change. FWIW, I agree with you and everything should be Classic+, especially the Conference, but it won't happen as long as the current people are involved. The HardCore was designed to be used on 325+ fields only. The fact that directors are allowing them at least partially on the directors. They have the ability to limit the legal balls in their tournaments to whatever they would like. HardCores were not allowed in IL.

Do you know when they'll start publishing world dates?

 

[EAJuggalo]

Stro was on Hit N Sit last week and said that B and above would be out by today. I know usually they try to have them out by Christmas so that people can request time off if they only get one shot at the beginning of the year. Once the B and above it set the rest are slotted into place. There was a comment that one level was being moved from Viera, but nothing saying what level or where it is being moved too. There were too many divisions and teams the week I was there. Men's Major, C, Women's C and D was too much.

 

[EAJuggalo]

Saw a rule change talked about yesterday that I hadn't heard anything about, but I hope is true. Anyone that catches an autobump from the national office for finishing top 10% at an E World Event, goes to D+. I shouldn't be turning on the final four of E at Viera and seeing guys that I know have finished in the top 10 the last three years. Hearing some back and forth whether it's true or not. I wouldn't necessarily have heard about it since I was only told about the playing rule changes, not the bylaw changes. I'll find out for sure when I get to Challenge Cup in 27 days or when the 2024 rulebook gets posted online.

 

[TWmccoy]

Saw a rule change talked about yesterday that I hadn't heard anything about, but I hope is true. Anyone that catches an autobump from the national office for finishing top 10% at an E World Event, goes to D+. I shouldn't be turning on the final four of E at Viera and seeing guys that I know have finished in the top 10 the last three years. Hearing some back and forth whether it's true or not. I wouldn't necessarily have heard about it since I was only told about the playing rule changes, not the bylaw changes. I'll find out for sure when I get to Challenge Cup in 27 days or when the 2024 rulebook gets posted online.

Makes sense. Ridiculous to have established D players slumming around in E all the time.

 

[ilyk2win]

I've been calling for this for about 6 years or so now, but for all C/D/E teams that get an autobump for ANY reason (some teams have great seasons but don't do well at Worlds). It will keep the team from breaking up and playing down again on a different team. Bench guys, bottom of the lineup players and coaches "could" appeal the plus; everyone else should carry it for at least 2 years IMO. Will be bumpy for a year or two, but you'd see local C programs in most states start to be an actual thing again. The argument against it is "well we've never done well at Worlds in <insert division>!" IMO, IDC - you play 4-16 local tourneys and 1 World (per association).

 

[TWmccoy]

I've been calling for this for about 6 years or so now, but for all C/D/E teams that get an autobump for ANY reason (some teams have great seasons but don't do well at Worlds). It will keep the team from breaking up and playing down again on a different team. Bench guys, bottom of the lineup players and coaches "could" appeal the plus; everyone else should carry it for at least 2 years IMO. Will be bumpy for a year or two, but you'd see local C programs in most states start to be an actual thing again. The argument against it is "well we've never done well at Worlds in <insert division>!" IMO, IDC - you play 4-16 local tourneys and 1 World (per association).

My team goes 1-2 at C worlds every year. I COULD use that argument to go play D tournies.... but I don't. Honestly, D doesn't interest me at all, and I've played B and C for over a decade.

That said, I do see a lot of C players pick up on D teams all the time.

Besides, I see all sorts of good C and D teams here in CO that smash everyone in tournies, then travel and get their asses kicked.

IMO one of the biggest problems in softball currently is that many players don't play at the level they should. They'll have C talent, but constantly slum around in D or even E. How that's even fun for them I don't know, but lots of guys do it.

I'm also tired of the "well, I want to play with my buddies" excuse.

 

[jbo911]

It's been mentioned here, but I think it only works if it's all levels. At least up to b.

I think they should just remove all chips. I'd be fine moving my whole team up to d to keep playing with one of our d players, so long as we're not facing 2-3 c players per team when we get there.

The chips are the problem. Teams break up to play down as chips. Teams get bumped and dump half their players to pick up upper players instead of just growing together.

 

[EAJuggalo]

It's been mentioned here, but I think it only works if it's all levels. At least up to b.

I think they should just remove all chips. I'd be fine moving my whole team up to d to keep playing with one of our d players, so long as we're not facing 2-3 c players per team when we get there.

The chips are the problem. Teams break up to play down as chips. Teams get bumped and dump half their players to pick up upper players instead of just growing together.

It's been confirmed this is for all men's and women's teams at D and E World events with at least 10 teams. If you catch an auto-bump for top 10% you also pick up the plus. So the top 10 teams from D Worlds in Viera would all be C+ next year.

I believe I saw something that drops are no longer allowed in Mixed. It was in the list of rule changes for South Texas that the + thing for auto bumps came from. I'd be all for it, or least limit it to one.

 

[jbo911]

It's been confirmed this is for all men's and women's teams at D and E World events with at least 10 teams. If you catch an auto-bump for top 10% you also pick up the plus. So the top 10 teams from D Worlds in Viera would all be C+ next year.

I believe I saw something that drops are no longer allowed in Mixed. It was in the list of rule changes for South Texas that the + thing for auto bumps came from. I'd be all for it, or least limit it to one.

This is just starting this year too, correct? They're not going back and upgrading previous bumps?

I'd be surprised if they did, but it would even things out. It would be tough though, especially since some of those have already appealled back to e.

I think this should at least go up to c.

 

[jbo911]

Just to say it one more time, I'm too old for any of this to really apply to me, but I'd love to work on my game and move up till I couldn't any more. Until utrip, and everyone for that matter, gets the equipment in line to where I'm actually working on my fitness and skill instead of just hoping I'm tough enough to survive, nobody will consistently move up. I saw a swing cartel podcast today I've never heard of talking about all the upper pitchers with broken bones this year. Testing helped, but only a little, and it really highlighted just how crazy it's been for us out there without the testing.

 

[EAJuggalo]

This is just starting this year too, correct? They're not going back and upgrading previous bumps?

I'd be surprised if they did, but it would even things out. It would be tough though, especially since some of those have already appealled back to e.

I think this should at least go up to c.

Correct, this applies to 2024 World events. I think moving guys from C to B+ is a bit too far, especially seeing as there are only a couple places in the country that have a B program outside of Conference. The MN team that finished 3rd at C Worlds. Those guys wouldn't be able to play anymore if they got bumped to B+, at least as B they can be a chip on a C team and still play. The other thing I've heard is that everyone affected by an autobump is having their appeal decided by the national committee rather than just the state director. This should end the guys in certain states that seem to be playing late Saturday at E worlds every year.

 

[TWmccoy]

Just to say it one more time, I'm too old for any of this to really apply to me, but I'd love to work on my game and move up till I couldn't any more. Until utrip, and everyone for that matter, gets the equipment in line to where I'm actually working on my fitness and skill instead of just hoping I'm tough enough to survive, nobody will consistently move up. I saw a swing cartel podcast today I've never heard of talking about all the upper pitchers with broken bones this year. Trying helped, but only a little, and it really highlighted just how crazy it's been for us out there without the testing.

I feel you. I really wish softball would go back to the way it was before, with much deader bats and balls. The game today is nothing like it was when I started playing.

Problem is, softball CAN'T go back to deader equipment because all of today's newer players would quit. They don't want to have to work hard or have skill to hit the ball hard.

Power hitters are obsolete anymore, because now every guy on the team hits HRs.

 

[jbo911]

Correct, this applies to 2024 World events. I think moving guys from C to B+ is a bit too far, especially seeing as there are only a couple places in the country that have a B program outside of Conference. The MN team that finished 3rd at C Worlds. Those guys wouldn't be able to play anymore if they got bumped to B+, at least as B they can be a chip on a C team and still play. The other thing I've heard is that everyone affected by an autobump is having their appeal decided by the national committee rather than just the state director. This should end the guys in certain states that seem to be playing late Saturday at E worlds every year.

That's true, I just meant d bumps being c+. Then, down the road once c is a real division again, you can look at all of them or removing chips.

We have a local guy that's very vocal about bumping all decent e teams, but doesn't want any d teams bumped. He thinks the gap from d to c is huge, but d to e isn't. I agree the bump from d to c is bigger than e to d, but just barely imo.

 

[TWmccoy]

That's true, I just meant d bumps being c+. Then, down the road once c is a real division again, you can look at all of them or removing chips.

We have a local guy that's very vocal about bumping all decent e teams, but doesn't want any d teams bumped. He thinks the gap from d to c is huge, but d to e isn't. I agree the bump from d to c is bigger than e to d, but just barely imo.

We have a few teams here in CO that smash everyone in D, then get bumped to C and get annihilated. I guess the gap's bigger than we think. These teams always end up getting dropped back to D midseason.

Back in the old days when you got bumped to C from D you made adjustments and picked up a guy or two to make your team better. Now everyone just meekly gives up and does nothing to improve.