ASA donuts on end of bats

[oppo]

Just for the record, you need to get someone to read the first non-instructional line of the Player's Affidavit on the roster.

You don't read so well, huh?

Just for the record, the roster sheet that I signed is simply an injury/photo release and says that I can be removed for "offensive conduct".

The roster sheet that you posted the link to is not the same as the one that I signed.

 

[NCASAUmp]

Just for the record, you need to get someone to read the first non-instructional line of the Player's Affidavit on the roster.

I believe oppo was referring to his league roster sheet, not the ASA registration sheet.

However, Irish's link does prove a valuable point to those who aren't stubborn enough to keep from reading it.

 

[irishmafia]

You don't read so well, huh?

Oh, I read just fine. I read the subject line beginning with "ASA" and promptly provided an official ASA Roster.

The roster sheet that you posted the link to is not the same as the one that I signed.

And if you are referencing something outside the realm of discussion, it is your responsibility to make that distinction, not mine to read your mind.

Thank you for playing.

 

[Sully]

This is absolutely unbelievable! How the hell did a non-approved warm-up bat become a legal debate? In Arizona, the state law says you can carry a gun in public. You can not bring a gun into an airport, even in Arizona. You will get arrested. When you go to board the plane, you will be searched, you will have to strip down, and you will have to go through a metal detector. You have an option. Drive your damn car! If you come into the airport, you consent to being searched, even if it violates your 4th amendment rights somehow.

This is a case of people being bitches and arguing just to ****ing argue. Holy ****! You can't search my bag, it violates my rights. Almost every umpire here said they would have you empty the bag, not reach in themselves. You have two choices, show them the bats, or leave the tournament.

The funny thing is these same guys allow the staff at Big League Dreams to completely violate these same 4th amendment rights and pay them $3 to do it! They completely search your bags and if you have food or drinks that aren't allowed in the facility, they remove them and throw them out. Yet, not one person has bitched about that. That is more invasive than removing bats that could get someone ejected from a tournament.

The other fact people on here are missing is *YOU* may not cheat, but that doesn't mean a lot of other people won't. Hell, look how many people use shaved bats despite knowing they are illegal. Do you think someone who shaves a bat would think for a minute about trying to sneak an illegal bat in or lie about whether it had been checked? Puh-lease!!If you want to ***** about the rule, ***** at all the guys you know cheat and break rules to win T-Shirts. If you really do follow the rules, you should THANK that umpire for removing the illegal bat from possibly being "accidentally" used. Consider him saving the team cheater/retard from getting ejected. Show me a major tournament without cheaters and you can start whining about the rights you forfeited when you played on private property.

 

[Sully]

You don't read so well, huh?



The roster sheet that you posted the link to is not the same as the one that I signed.

You could always just play in a league that doesn't require the bags or bats to be checked. At the higher levels, it is a distinct possiblity. For the last several years, at the Armed Forces tournament, they have provided the bats. If you bring a bat (any bat that isn't provided) into the dugout or on the playing field AT ALL you are ejected from the tournament, no questions asked.

Some of the tourneys that provide the bats don't allow bat bags in the park (because of dishonest people trying to steal the bats).

 

[mdntranger]

The bill of rights (1st ammendment right to free speech, 4th ammendment right against illegal search and seizure, etc.) has nothing to do with private parties. The bill of rights only dictate what the government and its agents may or may not do.

 

[oppo]

This is absolutely unbelievable! How the hell did a non-approved warm-up bat become a legal debate? because it was brought into it and relavent the the discussion at the time In Arizona, the state law says you can carry a gun in public. You can not bring a gun into an airport, even in Arizona. You will get arrested. That is because the law says it is illegal to carry at the airport. When you go to board the plane, you will be searched, you will have to strip down, and you will have to go through a metal detector. You have an option. Drive your damn car! If you come into the airport, you consent to being searched, even if it violates your 4th amendment rights somehow. How is it a violation of your rights if you consent to it?

This is a case of people being bitches and arguing just to ****ing argue. Holy ****! You can't search my bag, it violates my rights. Almost every umpire here said they would have you empty the bag, not reach in themselves. I will argue with anybody if they support violating the rules and several people here have supported umpires taking possession of bats even when no rules have been violated. You also can't just take someones property as some have claimed. You can ask and you can make them leave if they violate the rules but you can't just take something that isn't yours.

You have two choices, show them the bats, or leave the tournament. I can't speak for anyone else else but If an umpire asks to see my bats, I don't mind showing them to him. If there is a rule against an illegal bat being there, I won't have it there. If there is not and I have a utrip bat with me, I will point that fact out instead of letting him waste time looking for a sticker. If there isn't a rule against it, they have no reason to ask me to hand over possession, temporary or otherwise, or leave. If you don't want them there make sure you have a rule against it. Why wouldn't you have a rule in place if you don't want them there?

The funny thing is these same guys allow the staff at Big League Dreams to completely violate these same 4th amendment rights and pay them $3 to do it! They completely search your bags and if you have food or drinks that aren't allowed in the facility, they remove them and throw them out. Yet, not one person has bitched about that. That is more invasive than removing bats that could get someone ejected from a tournament.
No, they don't. You don't have to let them search your bag. You can either not bring it or not go in. You do have a choice. Also, they don't just grab your bag, you hand it to them voluntarily.

The other fact people on here are missing is *YOU* may not cheat, but that doesn't mean a lot of other people won't. Hell, look how many people use shaved bats despite knowing they are illegal. Do you think someone who shaves a bat would think for a minute about trying to sneak an illegal bat in or lie about whether it had been checked? Puh-lease!! Again, I can only speak for myself but I am not missing the point. There are a LOT of cheaters out there. If you want to ***** about the rule, ***** at all the guys you know cheat and break rules to win T-Shirts. This was my point. If you don't want them there, have a rule against it. Not everybody does. If you really do follow the rules, you should THANK that umpire for removing the illegal bat from possibly being "accidentally" used. As long as it is in the rules, I agree. If it is not, he is in the wrong and they need to make it a rule. Consider him saving the team cheater/retard from getting ejected. I would rather see the cheater get to the box and get tossed. Show me a major tournament without cheaters and you can start whining about the rights you forfeited when you played on private property. This is the point that you are missing. You don't forfeit your rights at anytime.

..........

 

[MrEye]

The bill of rights (1st ammendment right to free speech, 4th ammendment right against illegal search and seizure, etc.) has nothing to do with private parties. The bill of rights only dictate what the government and its agents may or may not do.

Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner! The Bill of Rights protects us from the state.

 

[oppo]

Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner! The Bill of Rights protects us from the state.

Which means what? That a private citizen can take property that isn't theirs? Try again.

 

[bb666b77]

Just for the record, you need to get someone to read the first non-instructional line of the Player's Affidavit on the roster.

are you talking about the line that says"may take a bat if deemed ALTERED".

 

[oppo]

are you talking about the line that says"may take a bat if deemed ALTERED".

Actually, that is a good catch. That particular statement doesn't mention anything about taking possession, temporary or permanent, of any bat unless it has been determined to be altered. It doesn't say anything about a bat such as a utrip bat. I also think that it is pretty easy to assume that in order to determine that a bat has been altered, you would need to have some possession of it given to you in the first place. In practice, I am sure this really only comes into play after the bat has been voluntarily handed over for a determination to be made. I assume that is because the ASA is not the one who actually takes initial possession of the bat. That would be the TD, LD, or someone acting on behalf of the TD or LD. Regardless, I don't see where it grants an umpire the right to take possession of a bat, especially one that is not believed to be altered, just for it being in the dugout. It looks to me like that would have to be addressed seperately at the local level.

 

[oppo]

Imo, just make specific rules regarding any illegal/non-approved bat and set strict penalties. If you don't want them there at all, make a rule that all bats must be checked and only bats legal for play are allowed in the dugout or the field of play. Why try and enforce a rule that doesn't exist when you can simply create a rule?

 

[Sully]

I can't make it simpler. You can say you "volunteer" to let TSA search you, wand you and undress you if you want to look at it that way. The umpires are going to do the same thing. If you refuse to show them the bats, you can choose to leave and not play softball. One guy mentioned an umpire getting in someone elses bag, every other umpire said they would ask you to show them the bats. You have a choice, comply or not play. Same concept as the airport, "volunteer" to be searched or leave.

The fact is th rule about BLD searching your bag is a local rule for that park. Same thing with checking bags, is that tournaments rule. You don't have to show them the bays in your bag or remove them from the dugout, but if you don't, you and your bats get removed from the dugout. Either way the bat is leaving the dugout. If you want to play, you should volunteer to show them the bats.

I think I'm pretty much done with the Miranda rights of softball and all the field lawyers arguing about rights they don't have based on an amendment that doesn't apply to private parties. I am losing brain cells with this retarded argument and I didn't have many to start with.

 

[BLAR13]

That's funny, because that's exactly what people here are doing. I do not advocate an umpire going into someone's bag on their own, though others keep insisting that I'm for it.



Sure.

Here is USSSA's statement indicating that illegal/altered bats will be confiscated until play is finished.

Here's NSA's statement that bats that are suspected to be altered may be confiscated.

Here's ISA's.

Are you guys getting the picture yet?

I was going to just quit posting on here cause it is clear although I have admitted my own fault in this situation (forgetting the bat, not in having the bat in the dugout, I will still fight that it was not announced that we were not to have the bats in the dugouts) the Blues on here for some reason are scared to say "That was Wrong the umpire made a Mistake" Guys if I can call out a team mate after a game for a mistake umpires should call out their fellow blues for their's.

Also NCASA you are quoting policies on altered bats, banned bats are in my opinion a different monster. If they were not then the penalties for "using" them would be the same and they are not.

I do like the NSA policy states it is up to the player to know they are using an altered bat. It doesn't say our umpires will save you from yourself cause you are too stupid. BUST THE CHEATERS if it happens enough the number of cheaters will go down. I am not naive enough to think that cheating will ever stop but you bust enough of them people will think twice.

 

[NCASAUmp]

I was going to just quit posting on here cause it is clear although I have admitted my own fault in this situation (forgetting the bat, not in having the bat in the dugout, I will still fight that it was not announced that we were not to have the bats in the dugouts) the Blues on here for some reason are scared to say "That was Wrong the umpire made a Mistake" Guys if I can call out a team mate after a game for a mistake umpires should call out their fellow blues for theirs.

And I did acknowledge that during this time, things such as procedures and policies were still "getting settled" on a national level.

It goes without saying that it's very difficult to get 40,000 umpires to march in lock-step across an entire country. Yes, there will be variations, even at the upper levels of the sport. Hopefully, these growing pains are behind us now.

Also NCASA you are quoting policies on altered bats, banned bats are in my opinion a different monster. If they were not then the penalties for "using" them would be the same and they are not.

And the position that I and my UICs have maintained is that bats that aren't allowed in play (whether illegal, altered or non-approved) should not be in the dugout for the sake of game management and preventative umpiring. If that means confiscating them, so be it.

At the Nationals I've called, they discussed this at the Managers' Meeting. Everyone knew what to expect before arriving at the fields. Ignorance is not a defense anymore. Actually, it never was to begin with.

I do like the NSA policy states it is up to the player to know they are using an altered bat. It doesn't say our umpires will save you from yourself cause you are too stupid. BUST THE CHEATERS if it happens enough the number of cheaters will go down. I am not naive enough to think that cheating will ever stop but you bust enough of them people will think twice.

NSA is not alone. ASA has the same policy: toss the bat, the owner, the player who used it, and even the coach. The team can even get booted completely out of the tournament as a result of possessing an altered bat on the premises.

Offhand, I can't recall where exactly ASA says that it's up to the players to know what bats they have, but I believe I read it somewhere along my travels. I may be mistaken, but would appreciate it if someone else pointed this out for me (at work, busy, and probably shouldn't even be on here!). Though even if it's not explicitly written out this way, the fact remains that the rule does not say anything about whether the batter knew the bat was illegal/altered/non-approved. If they enter the batter's box with such a bat, then the appropriate penalty applies (7-6-B or 7-6-C).

 

[BLAR13]

Imo, just make specific rules regarding any illegal/non-approved bat and set strict penalties. If you don't want them there at all, make a rule that all bats must be checked and only bats legal for play are allowed in the dugout or the field of play. Why try and enforce a rule that doesn't exist when you can simply create a rule?

I disagree with you. I do not need to have a USSSA ball bag and a ASA ball bag. I am an adult who is intelligent enough to realize what association I am playing in and know what equipment I can use. I am sick of the cheaters ruining the game. Before it was just a safety issue when I play third now because of cheaters I can't carry my Utrip bat to the field I must get talc out of my bag cause it is not Gorilla Gold. Cmon yes Bats are an issue but stop punishing me a guy who respects the game and just wants to play.

 

[MrEye]

Which means what? That a private citizen can take property that isn't theirs? Try again.

No, they can't, but not because of the 4th Ammendment.

 

[oppo]

I can't make it simpler. You can say you "volunteer" to let TSA search you, wand you and undress you if you want to look at it that way. The umpires are going to do the same thing. Airports are a different issue but for the purpose of this discussion, I would say the airport scenario could easily be compared to having a check at the gate like BLD does. If you refuse to show them the bats, you can choose to leave and not play softball. This is what I said. One guy mentioned an umpire getting in someone elses bag, every other umpire said they would ask you to show them the bats. You have a choice, comply or not play. Same concept as the airport, "volunteer" to be searched or leave. I have no problem with an umpire asking to check any bat at the game. As I have said repeatedly, the problem comes when they try to enforce rules that don't exist by attempting to take possession of property when there are no rules supporting that action. Even digging through someones bag is fine as long as they have given consent. If they haven't then you may as well go digging through the purse of some lady in the stands.

The fact is th rule about BLD searching your bag is a local rule for that park. Same thing with checking bags, is that tournaments rule. You don't have to show them the bays in your bag or remove them from the dugout, but if you don't, you and your bats get removed from the dugout. Either way the bat is leaving the dugout. If you want to play, you should volunteer to show them the bats. I have already said many times on here that if there is a rule in place then I am in support of enforcing that rule. The problem is when you have an individual trying to enforce rules that don't exist. I certainly don't think it is too much to ask that those who enforce the rules should also follow them.

I think I'm pretty much done with the Miranda rights of softball and all the field lawyers arguing about rights they don't have based on an amendment that doesn't apply to private parties. I am losing brain cells with this retarded argument and I didn't have many to start with. Miranda rights have nothing to do with this. The issue with rights is possession of property.

If the rules say that only bats legal for play are allowed in the dugout, great. But if the rules only mention taking them into the batters box, then why would you have any right to take possession of that bat if it is sitting in the dugout, inside a bag, and not being used? If anyone imposes a penalty for rules that have not been broken, they are in the wrong.

Do it right. Make the rule, inform people of the rule, and then enforce it.

 

[NCASAUmp]

If the rules say that only bats legal for play are allowed in the dugout, great. But if the rules only mention taking them into the batters box, then why would you have any right to take possession of that bat if it is sitting in the dugout, inside a bag, and not being used? If anyone imposes a penalty for rules that have not been broken, they are in the wrong.

Do it right. Make the rule, inform people of the rule, and then enforce it.

Again, there's a difference between managing the rules and managing the game. Getting non-conforming bats out of the dugout is good game management.

 

[oppo]

Imo, just make specific rules regarding any illegal/non-approved bat and set strict penalties. If you don't want them there at all, make a rule that all bats must be checked and only bats legal for play are allowed in the dugout or the field of play. Why try and enforce a rule that doesn't exist when you can simply create a rule?

I disagree with you. I do not need to have a USSSA ball bag and a ASA ball bag. I am an adult who is intelligent enough to realize what association I am playing in and know what equipment I can use. I am sick of the cheaters ruining the game. Before it was just a safety issue when I play third now because of cheaters I can't carry my Utrip bat to the field I must get talc out of my bag cause it is not Gorilla Gold. Cmon yes Bats are an issue but stop punishing me a guy who respects the game and just wants to play.

I am a little confused on exactly what you are disagreeing with. Are you saying they should be able take possession of a bat when no rule has been broken or that they simply shouldn't be there in the first palce?

No, they can't, but not because of the 4th Ammendment.

That wasn't my arguement. I am not the one brought the fourth amendment up.

 

[oppo]

Again, there's a difference between managing the rules and managing the game. Getting non-conforming bats out of the dugout is good game management.

I agree with you that it is a good idea to only have legal bats in the dugout. I am not arguing that bats which are not legal for play should be there. I am saying that if the goal is to keep them out, why not simply address the issue "officially"? The only time I have ever seen bats checked is immediately before the game starts and it is usually a long way to the parking lot. At that point, even if you aren't trying to take possession of the bat, asking for the player to take it to the parking lot is essentially asking the player to miss part of the game when there is nothing wrong with the bat being there as long as it isn't used and no rules have been broken. If you make it a rule, there is no excuse for the player having it there in the first place. In other words, if you have certain expectations, make them known before the game, not during. Having a rule in place would accomplish this. If the player doesn't read the rules, that is their fault.

 

[NCASAUmp]

I agree with you that it is a good idea to only have legal bats in the dugout. I am not arguing that bats which are not legal for play should be there. I am saying that if the goal is to keep them out, why not simply address the issue "officially"? The only time I have ever seen bats checked is immediately before the game starts and it is usually a long way to the parking lot. At that point, even if you aren't trying to take possession of the bat, asking for the player to take it to the parking lot is essentially asking the player to miss part of the game when there is nothing wrong with the bat being there as long as it isn't used and no rules have been broken. If you make it a rule, there is no excuse for the player having it there in the first place. In other words, if you have certain expectations, make them known before the game, not during. Having a rule in place would accomplish this. If the player doesn't read the rules, that is their fault.

Actually, we tell the players we'll wait until they return to start the game. The players have themselves to blame for not listening to their managers, assuming their managers told them in the first place.

Secondly, what good does a rule do? Nothing. Players break/skirt/bend/argue rules all the time. Making it a "rule" will accomplish zilch.

 

[MaverickAH]

If the rules say that only bats legal for play are allowed in the dugout, great. But if the rules only mention taking them into the batters box, then why would you have any right to take possession of that bat if it is sitting in the dugout, inside a bag, and not being used? If anyone imposes a penalty for rules that have not been broken, they are in the wrong.

Do it right. Make the rule, inform people of the rule, and then enforce it.

I would never advocate an umpire going into someone's bag! If an illegal or unsanctioned bat is in the dugout, out in plain sight, I am going to have it removed! That's right...... I am going to jump right to the intention of them being there to be used.

I check a lot of things before the game:

• Condition of the field.
• Bats
• Balls
• No metal cleats
• Condition of the players (some leagues allow alcohol)
• Batter's helmets & catcher's equipment (fastpitch)

It's why I get to the field at least 30min before game time.......

 

[oppo]

I would never advocate an umpire going into someone's bag! If an illegal or unsanctioned bat is in the dugout, out in plain sight, I am going to have it removed! That's right...... I am going to jump right to the intention of them being there to be used.

I check a lot of things before the game:

• Condition of the field.
• Bats
• Balls
• No metal cleats
• Condition of the players (some leagues allow alcohol)
• Batter's helmets & catcher's equipment (fastpitch)

It's why I get to the field at least 30min before game time.......

If it is sitting out in plain sight, they probably do intend to use it. ijs

 

[irishmafia]

are you talking about the line that says"may take a bat if deemed ALTERED".

Really? You cannot count to one? Guess I shouldn't be shocked, Sam Houston had a problem with numbers, too.

You know, I've already posted the excerpt from the ASA Code. You go find it, I'm not your secretary.

Its stupid **** like this that makes people think slowpitch players are a bunch of dumb drunks.

 

[bb666b77]

Really? You cannot count to one? Guess I shouldn't be shocked, Sam Houston had a problem with numbers, too.

You know, I've already posted the excerpt from the ASA Code. You go find it, I'm not your secretary.

Its stupid **** like this that makes people think umpires are a bunch of dumb drunks.

well if the shoe fits.



like i said,where in that link does it say bats need to be ASA,just to be in the bag in the dugout.....

 

[irishmafia]

well if the shoe fits.

Oh, wasn't that clever? Well, no, not really, just helping prove the point.

 

[bb666b77]

Oh, wasn't that clever? Well, no, not really, just helping prove the point.

and your point is... ,it does not say anything about bats in general,just altered....

 

[Gulf Coast Blue]

Holy Cow......what a CF.......If my UIC at a tournament says check all bats.......that means check all bats........in/out of the bag........would I go digging myself.........no.............and I don't think anyone here would say they would.......but I might send the un-emptied bat bag to the parking lot.

The worst spectical I ever witnessed was when I saw a coach in Atlanta get tossed before his first National game by making an ass of himself by tossing 1/2 of his bats onto the field during a bat check (late 90's).........and this was before his opening game.......this was during a FP National..................I was horrified............I had never seen anything like this before............and in the 3000+ FP games I have coached/umpired/witnessed.......it was an anomoly.............

I have umpired about 200 SP games over the past 10 years.....and cannot figure out why they are so difficult........I love the speed.....the athletisism..........but do not like the crying.............I like the game over FP...........if it were not for the cry baby attitude.

I know that you get some good umpires.....but you would get more if it were not for your antics........

Just sayin........................

Joel

 

[NCASAUmp]

Holy Cow......what a CF.......If my UIC at a tournament says check all bats.......that means check all bats........in/out of the bag........would I go digging myself.........no.............and I don't think anyone here would say they would.......but I might send the un-emptied bat bag to the parking lot.

The worst spectical I ever witnessed was when I saw a coach in Atlanta get tossed before his first National game by making an ass of himself by tossing 1/2 of his bats onto the field during a bat check (late 90's).........and this was before his opening game.......this was during a FP National..................I was horrified............I had never seen anything like this before............and in the 3000+ FP games I have coached/umpired/witnessed.......it was an anomoly.............

I have umpired about 200 SP games over the past 10 years.....and cannot figure out why they are so difficult........I love the speed.....the athletisism..........but do not like the crying.............I like the game over FP...........if it were not for the cry baby attitude.

I know that you get some good umpires.....but you would get more if it were not for your antics........

Just sayin........................

Joel

A. Friggin'. Men.