New utrip rules, etc

[jbo911]

With Easton's recent release of protective equipment, if they mandate $180 helmets to pitch will you keep playing?

A better question is, will the associations ever realize where they've taken the game from the one that used to be safe to play at company picnics, and how that has negatively effected participation?

 

[basilray]

I already have an ST1, so a mandate wouldn't bother me unless for some reason that gets declared as "Not sufficient" and I have to re-invest.

Took a laser off the mask for the first time this year after wearing it for the last 3 years. I had zero prayer of getting a glove on it, and the batter and other team gave the typical "What's the big deal, you have a helmet on?" response.

I think you're an idiot to stand up there w/o SOMETHING to protect your face given the lack of bat testing in leagues and the modern bat/ball combos. I'd rather see people safe than hurt, but I'm not in love w/ mandates for protective equipment as the answer either. I'd be all for turning down the heat on bats, which we can all agree 240's are not helping with.

 

[ImminentDanger]

I only play league - Only two years ago I finally bought a helmet (Worth Legit).
Demanding that ONLY the new NOCSAE-approved helmet can be used is like demanding
that all cars be HUMMERS because everything else is less safe. It might be true, but it is
still an unreasonable demand.

I haven't heard of a quantity of face/head injuries occuring with the other pitcher's masks.

If the league required this $180 helmet I would (at this age) be seriously reluctant to continue.

Can a complete pitching suit be far behind???

Easton Hellcat Helmet:

 

[ilyk2win]

I'm no lawyer, and didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night either, but that kind of mandate after years of claiming legality reasons for not having a mandate previously would reek of ANOTHER money grab by USSSA - and could open them to some sort of legal action I'd imagine. I should have retired from this sport a decade ago, and would definitely retire from USSSA play if they say my Worth mask is insufficient.

 

[jbo911]

Those are all exactly my point.

They can't require a helmet for "safety" without having a standard for said helmets. We'd have to buy a stamped helmet, and it would definitely be a huge money grab.

 

[hitless45]

Money garb.. utrip. Nah

 

[TWmccoy]

If USSSA was really about safety they'd go with 240 bats and C+ balls. I don't have a problem with it taking skill to hit HRs. Plus, .52 balls come off the bat slower and do less bodily damage than other balls.

Instead, USSSA goes with a (slightly) deader bat while making the ball livelier. That makes no sense, and is no good from a safety standpoint.

 

[jbo911]

The does less damage to the body is the big thing, because that means the other does more. That's not just drilling pitchers, and people seem to forget that. It's fans hit by foul balls, runners hit on batted and thrown balls, and especially all of those things as the temps go down.

 

[blakcherry329]

Any LAX helmet should be adequate protection. I've been using the same helmet for over 8 years. Got it on ebay for $25 because I wasn't sure I was going to like it. Best investment ever. Luckily I never needed it. It's weird. I've had closer calls back in the 90s and early 2000s than I have since I've been wearing a helmet.
Not sure why any pitcher wouldn't wear a mask nowadays.

Having said that, to mandate that the only helmet worthy is, basically, a $180 glorified LAX helmet reeks of collusion/money grab.

 

[jbo911]

Charging 180 or 200 for a glorified version of catchers helmets you already sell for 70 already reeks.

 

[EAJuggalo]

USSSA will not mandate pitching helmets. If they do, they have to mandate something with a standard and enforce that standard is followed. The first time someone goes out in a weekend E tourney with a Worth pitching mask and gets smoked in the ear, USSSA's liable. If they don't make it a mandate but a strong recommendation they will have a much easier time defending the lawsuit.
Would not be a cash grab for USSSA. They wouldn't get any money unless they created their own standard and required a stamp. That makes them potentially liable for any injuries that happened while wearing their approved safety gear. If either USA or USSSA were ever going to mandate it, they'd use a third party certification like NOCSAE.

 

[JN137]

If there was ever a "money grab" I could get behind, it would be requiring guys standing 50' away from a 100+ mph ball to wear face protection. When an object is moving directly at your face, you don't even know until it is almost there. I applaud the pitchers that can legitimately play their positions, but let's be real a lot of guys pitching at lower levels can't.

That being said, the whole "safety" spiel from USSSA is laughable. Their whole premise is to sell a 160lb guy the opportunity to hit one over the fence on Friday night.

Another example is not being allowed to re-touch on 1st and 3rd. I see just as many guys get smoked standing on 3rd as I do pitchers. Except the baserunner doesn't have a glove.

 

[blakcherry329]

USSSA will not mandate pitching helmets. If they do, they have to mandate something with a standard and enforce that standard is followed. The first time someone goes out in a weekend E tourney with a Worth pitching mask and gets smoked in the ear, USSSA's liable. If they don't make it a mandate but a strong recommendation they will have a much easier time defending the lawsuit.
Would not be a cash grab for USSSA. They wouldn't get any money unless they created their own standard and required a stamp. That makes them potentially liable for any injuries that happened while wearing their approved safety gear. If either USA or USSSA were ever going to mandate it, they'd use a third party certification like NOCSAE.

Not a cash grab for USSSA, per se. More like a "one hand washes the other" situation. Like insurance companies making patients jump through unnecessary hoops to generate more income for the Doctors, i.e. extra visits to fulfill some requirement to get to the procedure you really need.

 

[EAJuggalo]

Not a cash grab for USSSA, per se. More like a "one hand washes the other" situation. Like insurance companies making patients jump through unnecessary hoops to generate more income for the Doctors, i.e. extra visits to fulfill some requirement to get to the procedure you really need.

You think Easton and Schutt are going to kick back to USSSA for making helmets mandatory? I don't see it.

 

[andy-rockstar]

Charging 180 or 200 for a glorified version of catchers helmets you already sell for 70 already reeks.

That's ironic, because I wear a catcher's helmet to pitch. My head is too big for the pitching helmets that are out there.

 

[ilyk2win]

You think Easton and Schutt are going to kick back to USSSA for making helmets mandatory? I don't see it.

Isn't Helmer Mr Easton in terms of slowpitch? If so, then absolutely YES that it is a mutually beneficial situation should it occur.

 

[blakcherry329]

You think Easton and Schutt are going to kick back to USSSA for making helmets mandatory? I don't see it.

Maybe not a direct kickback, but sanctions/rules can be made to benefit bat companies, such as the 220/240 nonsense.

 

[jbo911]

If they were worried about safety/lawsuit, and that was their main priority, they'd follow USA's every move. They'd have double the research and back up if anyone sued them. Industry wide accepted standards, etc.

I'm not a lawyer, but that much is pretty obvious. They appear to think that keeping the appearance of hotter bats and balls will increase their participation numbers. Right or wrong, continuing to do so will only hurt their chances in court in my opinion.

 

[jbo911]

If there was ever a "money grab" I could get behind, it would be requiring guys standing 50' away from a 100+ mph ball to wear face protection. When an object is moving directly at your face, you don't even know until it is almost there. I applaud the pitchers that can legitimately play their positions, but let's be real a lot of guys pitching at lower levels can't.

That being said, the whole "safety" spiel from USSSA is laughable. Their whole premise is to sell a 160lb guy the opportunity to hit one over the fence on Friday night.

Another example is not being allowed to re-touch on 1st and 3rd. I see just as many guys get smoked standing on 3rd as I do pitchers. Except the baserunner doesn't have a glove.

Here's where I got drilled a few years ago on third. Nothing like a classic m in may when it still gets below 60 occasionally.

 

[jbo911]

I know it's just a little discoloration, but it also doesn't really make you very confident that they care at all about your health.

Og post, it was in 2021 and 42 degrees.

http://forums.softballfans.com/index.php?threads/pro-m-challenge.1461211/post-19221002

 

[TWmccoy]

All softball sanctions should use some sort of .52 ball, period. .40 balls are the most dangerous. They become ROCK hard in the cold, and have no flexibility. Anyone hit by one might as well be hit with a cement ball.

.52 balls still have the capacity to cause grievous injury, but nothing like Pro Ms or classic Ms. They also don't come off the bat as fast as other balls.

Contrary to popular belief, .52s fly just fine, even in places like FL. In fact, on really hot days .52s noticeably outfly .40s or .44s.

Softball safety begins and ends with the ball being used, period. IDK why associations don't see that.

Here in CO WSL uses .44 400 Gold Dots, and it's silly. Half the year the temps are cool/cold, and the balls are bricks. I keep waiting for someone to get dotted and killed in one of those tournies. Fields are 300', and guys routinely go over 400'. It's like playing on a little league field.

 

[blakcherry329]

I think the HR rule is the main reason pitchers get drilled. Change the ball, Make the arch 6-10 and the Plate is a strike, and something like 5-10 HRs a game.
Give the pitcher a little bit of control, damnit. lol

 

[ilyk2win]

I think the HR rule is the main reason pitchers get drilled. Change the ball, Make the arch 6-10 and the Plate is a strike, and something like 5-10 HRs a game.
Give the pitcher a little bit of control, damnit. lol

HR rules have been around since I started tourney ball on a regular basis back in 1993. ASA was the only game in town, and in D I can't remember if the first one counted or not, but then next was an out, then each one after resulted in the player being ejected from the game. You didn't have a sub, you lose. The difference was that equipment was such that beginners like myself at 165 lbs weren't hitting HR's, and the guys who did/could, moved up. Pitcher safety really became an issue when the bats got TOO hot. The balls back then, Blue Dots and Red Dots where I was, were good....the bats were good enough to accurately display the hitters ability. Now the bats are the talent, and the easiest place to get it past is the guy standing the closest (was then too - just not as easy OR as dangerous). Changing HR limits won't do much to pitcher safety as there will still be a lot of scenarios that call for a base hit and not a long ball. Also I blame little weiners......bc those guys do it just to get their rocks off.

 

[jbo911]

I think the HR rule is the main reason pitchers get drilled. Change the ball, Make the arch 6-10 and the Plate is a strike, and something like 5-10 HRs a game.
Give the pitcher a little bit of control, damnit. lol

The pitchers need control, and I'd be fine with a modest hr increase, but the two best things I've experienced were making anything over a single, and the progressive penalty.

If you want to be punitive the progressive penalty is the best. Everything over the limit is an out, then an out plus a run, then out and two runs, etc.

For leagues especially, the single is great. It's a dead ball single so a guy hits a triple a hr doesn't score him. It lets people swing for the fence and feed their ego, stay out of the middle, and most of the time realize they aren't as automatic as they'd like to believe.

 

[jbo911]

HR rules have been around since I started tourney ball on a regular basis back in 1993. ASA was the only game in town, and in D I can't remember if the first one counted or not, but then next was an out, then each one after resulted in the player being ejected from the game. You didn't have a sub, you lose. The difference was that equipment was such that beginners like myself at 165 lbs weren't hitting HR's, and the guys who did/could, moved up. Pitcher safety really became an issue when the bats got TOO hot. The balls back then, Blue Dots and Red Dots where I was, were good....the bats were good enough to accurately display the hitters ability. Now the bats are the talent, and the easiest place to get it past is the guy standing the closest (was then too - just not as easy OR as dangerous). Changing HR limits won't do much to pitcher safety as there will still be a lot of scenarios that call for a base hit and not a long ball. Also I blame little weiners......bc those guys do it just to get their rocks off.

Those balls were good, but the bats had a reasonable ss. You still had to have talent to hit it hard.

I will never understand why in baseball the best of the best use the worst equipment, and in softball we are out here making hrs participation trophies. Everyone should get one. No, no they shouldn't, and I say that as I'm getting close to the time when I won't be able to anymore.

 

[TWmccoy]

240 bats and Pro Ms aren't the answer, in terms of limiting HRs. From what I've seen, guys are still easily hitting HRs, even those who don't deserve to.

If USSSA really wanted to up the ante and limit things they'd make the bat MINIMUM compression 280-300. In the old days bats were all above that anyway, and plenty of guys still went yard.

 

[jbo911]

If they won't go to 52s,, 47 or 50 /3 something balls with 280 bats would be more than enough. I'd be shocked if they even did 265 though.

We need consistent balls too. I wonder if that'd be easier with higher cors. I'd love a maximum barrel of 12", but that'll never happen.

 

[TWmccoy]

If they won't go to 52s,, 47 or 50 /3 something balls with 280 bats would be more than enough. I'd be shocked if they even did 265 though.

We need consistent balls too. I wonder if that'd be easier with higher cors. I'd love a maximum barrel of 12", but that'll never happen.

I think a .52 350-ish ball and a stiff bat (300 compression) would make a good game. You'd still see plenty of HRs, but not by wimpy guys with crappy swings. As long as the ball has a higher cor, you'll get reasonable distance out if it with pretty much any bat.

USSSA will never do this, though. They WANT softball the way it is, with hot bats and hard balls. We are, after all, in the "instant gratification" generation. Many of the guys I know don't think softball should be a hard game to play. I think USSSA is afraid that if they restrict/dumb down the equipment too much that people will quit en masse.

I actually agree with you on the barrel length, too. I don't think anyone should get a 14" barrel. With 12" max you at least need a little hitting ability to find the sweet spot.

 

[ilyk2win]

Lets not downplay the significance of bat weights either. Everyone can generate bat speed now, as we're basically swingning loaded whiffleball bats.

 

[basilray]

Lets not downplay the significance of bat weights either. Everyone can generate bat speed now, as we're basically swingning loaded whiffleball bats.

I still think I'm in the minority that doesn't buy the 24/25oz bats as being that impactful in terms of safety or output for the guys that have a need to swing those.

The problem is the guys that could swing a telephone pole and smash 400' swinging those bats.

Personally, I can't swing anything lighter than 27oz EL or my swing gets weird. I typically try and swing 28oz EL if I just need a hit, because the heavier bat helps me level my swing more.