4 Stamp Phenix vs 5 Stamp Phenix
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gunyhighway
Addicted to Softballfans
Owned both and they are the same
single wally
Professional Amateur
Fast pitch bats are the goods in SP fo sho
As a recent convert I approve this message.
fierce_gt
Addicted to Softballfans
i have a conspiracy theory about this(take with grain of salt, and you should know i've never used a FP bat).
the way asa performs it's testing, a heavier bat should do better than a lighter bat. the greater inertia of the heavy bat means it'll move backwards less, transferring more of the energy from the collision back into the ball.
if this is true, then bats made in heavier weights must have 'toned down' barrels to compensate.
now this doesn't mean you should swing the heaviest bat you can, but what it does mean(or would if any of this is true) is that a bat that is available in a 30oz has to be toned down compared to a bat that is only available up to 26oz. now on the asa test, the 30oz and 26oz bats would both perform equally well. but if you took a 26oz version of the SP bat and compared it to either the 30oz SP or 26oz FP bat, it would not perform as well on the test.
end result, if you swing 26oz bats, a FP bat could be hotter than a 26oz SP bat.
the same could be said for SP bat only made up to 28oz. in theory one of those could be hotter than the 28oz version of a bat made up to 30oz.
ok, conspiracy theory over
Stravo Thalem
The Veteran
i have a conspiracy theory about this(take with grain of salt, and you should know i've never used a FP bat).
the way asa performs it's testing, a heavier bat should do better than a lighter bat. the greater inertia of the heavy bat means it'll move backwards less, transferring more of the energy from the collision back into the ball.
if this is true, then bats made in heavier weights must have 'toned down' barrels to compensate.
now this doesn't mean you should swing the heaviest bat you can, but what it does mean(or would if any of this is true) is that a bat that is available in a 30oz has to be toned down compared to a bat that is only available up to 26oz. now on the asa test, the 30oz and 26oz bats would both perform equally well. but if you took a 26oz version of the SP bat and compared it to either the 30oz SP or 26oz FP bat, it would not perform as well on the test.
end result, if you swing 26oz bats, a FP bat could be hotter than a 26oz SP bat.
the same could be said for SP bat only made up to 28oz. in theory one of those could be hotter than the 28oz version of a bat made up to 30oz.
ok, conspiracy theory over
eh, that all sounds fine, but you're forgetting that the heavier the bat, the slower you swing with it. not sure if it's proportional, but try swinging a tree limb as fast as you swing a golf club. So, if a heavier bat does move backwards less, you have to think that it wasn't going as fast as the lighter one. Wish i had more bats to try this theory out, somebody hook me up.
hoimin
Addicted to Softballfans
The (conspiracy) theory is that for people who swing 26oz, they might see better performance from the FP bats because their barrels are tuned with the 26oz maximum performance, vs an SP 26oz, which has a barrel that is tuned to the performance of a 28/30ozer.
Yes, heavier bats hit farther, but take more power to generate the necessary swing speed, but differences between swing weight is not really part of the theory's point.
Yes, heavier bats hit farther, but take more power to generate the necessary swing speed, but differences between swing weight is not really part of the theory's point.
fierce_gt
Addicted to Softballfans
this is specifically in regards to the asa test, which has a ball fired at astationary, but free to rotate, bat. when the swing speed is 0, the role the mass of the bat plays is a lot easier to understand. i still can't say how MUCH the affect is though. is it 1%, .001%, 10%? i have no idea.eh, that all sounds fine, but you're forgetting that the heavier the bat, the slower you swing with it. not sure if it's proportional, but try swinging a tree limb as fast as you swing a golf club. So, if a heavier bat does move backwards less, you have to think that it wasn't going as fast as the lighter one. Wish i had more bats to try this theory out, somebody hook me up.
i did state that my theory had nothing to do with what weight you swing best, and it's not meant to say a heavier bat will always perform better on the field.
yeah, all i'm saying is that if a heavy bat performs better on the test, then a heavy bat needs to have lower performance to pass the test. so if comparing a 26oz FP bat and a 26oz SP bat, it's possible that the FP bat is actually hotter because there's not 30oz version that needs to pass the test as well.
ie, for kicks n giggles, let's pretend the following:
SP asa testing results
26oz - 97.5mph
27oz - 97.6mph
28oz - 97.7mph
30oz - 97.9mph
FP asa testing results
23oz - 97.6mph
24oz - 97.7mph
25oz - 97.8mph
26oz - 97.9mph
so looking at the two 26oz versions, the FP bat is 'actually' hotter than the SP bat, even though both models would be at the legal performance limit.
thing is i have no idea how much of a difference an oz can make in the test, i don't know if they compensate for this, and i have no idea if they necessarily test all weights either. my gut feeling is that none of this would make a significant difference, but in a purely theoretical aspect, it makes sense to me.
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gsus03
Banned User
after all this reading I have a headache now, but what I will say is my two current asa gamers are a 34/25 CF3 and a 33/25 Phenix...Cf3 has no rattle or anything but is pretty well broken in, the Phenix on the other hand has two foam rattles and has a nice CRACK sound...my buddy, BALCO305, swings bats anywhere from 24oz up to 30oz (sounds crazy and I didn't believe it until I saw it) and I had him take a few swings with my Phenix one day at bp using some evil bp balls and some asas 44/375s...every shot was a seed with it and he was pretty impressed from what he told me...I bought a 2012 worth fp 34/25 (scale weight 26.0oz with knob cuff) because I saw that it had two strikes on the NCAA bat list which basically means it is on the verge of being banned...I personally can't get the feel for it and it's currently up for sale/trade, but plenty of guys that like the feel of worths say the bat is fire...also, BALCO305 absolutely RAKES with the all white miken freak fp 34/24 with pink knob cuff lol
single wally
Professional Amateur
Below is from an old post by Tumblebug aka Steve Anderson, who knows a thing or two about bat technology. He basically says the peak performance is the same between SP and FP, but does admit to slightly thinner walls in FP bats. I think Fierce_GTs example is correct. I believe the barrel thickness is the same for all weights, but with the heaviest model having the highest BBS. It then stands to reason that a 26oz FP should have a higher BBS than a 26oz SP.
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"There are some very specific differences in designing a fastpitch bat and a slowpitch bat. The combined relative speeds are fairly close but the momentum transfer is significantly higher in slowpitch because the possible batspeed is significantly higher. The bat (between 26 and 32 ounces) having considerably more mass than the ball (between 6 and 7 ounces) provides a higher momentum number at impact in slowpitch.
So the walls of a slowpitch bat need to be a touch thicker to withstand the higher momentum number. The fastpitch bat needs a lower MOI to increase batspeed with the added weight. There is a balance that needs to be maintained and at the very top end the performance is the same but the durability in the fastpitch is compromised. If you’re batspeed is on the low side for a man (below 65 mph) then the fastpitch bat could possibly give you a bit of an advantage. If you have good batspeed the Slowpitch bat would provide better performance.
A fastpitch bat generally has a longer barrel that would provide a larger effective hitting area that is necessary when dealing with a pitch more than twice as fast from the same distance. The slowpitch would require more precision but the difference in pitch speed should more than make up the difference."
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"There are some very specific differences in designing a fastpitch bat and a slowpitch bat. The combined relative speeds are fairly close but the momentum transfer is significantly higher in slowpitch because the possible batspeed is significantly higher. The bat (between 26 and 32 ounces) having considerably more mass than the ball (between 6 and 7 ounces) provides a higher momentum number at impact in slowpitch.
So the walls of a slowpitch bat need to be a touch thicker to withstand the higher momentum number. The fastpitch bat needs a lower MOI to increase batspeed with the added weight. There is a balance that needs to be maintained and at the very top end the performance is the same but the durability in the fastpitch is compromised. If you’re batspeed is on the low side for a man (below 65 mph) then the fastpitch bat could possibly give you a bit of an advantage. If you have good batspeed the Slowpitch bat would provide better performance.
A fastpitch bat generally has a longer barrel that would provide a larger effective hitting area that is necessary when dealing with a pitch more than twice as fast from the same distance. The slowpitch would require more precision but the difference in pitch speed should more than make up the difference."
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fierce_gt
Addicted to Softballfans
where does one find this information about bats having 'strikes' against them? i'm guessing that's only for FP bats?
that sounds like he's talking more about what makes a good bat. that is, what type of swing weight etc the typical batter would need. not necessarily how to 'get around' the testing
dttruax
Addicted to Softballfans
Only for NCAA fastpitch really: http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect...ERES&CACHEID=cae411804ae591299584d5d0ae33e5ab
Kleinjohnson
Swinger... NOT collector
To give a completely non-scientific account of my experiences... Ive swung just about every pre-abi SP bat out there over the past few years. Never really got too deeply into FP. I ended up getting a 34/26 phenix just because I was so curious that I could not stand it any longer. At first I openly talk a lot of shyt about it. Even opened a thread saying that I wasn't impressed at all. Then it finally broke in... The crack sound that it made off the barrel sounded similar to how the OG Flexes sound right before they're about to crack, except the phenix wasn't about to crack. It lasted an entire season sounding like that, and it put every other bat I had ever swung to shame. It turned a lot of people who had never swung fast pitch bats into believers. I let a guy on my team swing it who had never hit a long ball in his life, and he launched career hr #1 with it. We had to get our bats compression tested, and we were testing multiple other bats just for fun... and and it failed compression worse than a broken in sb73v and my lady virus.
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Stravo Thalem
The Veteran
ah, i get what you're saying now. still don't like how the bat isn't moving in these tests, but that goes back to a compression test thread i started about a week ago. Totally makes sense though. Maybe that's why i've started to like my cf3 and cf5 so much better than my regular SP bats, cause i'm usually swinging a 26 or 27 oz. Makes me want to get a 30 oz bat in something i already have, see if i can perform the same/better/worse because of the weight difference.
fierce_gt
Addicted to Softballfans
so the question is(and with the flipper's recent rumours in mind), does compression testing really = performance?
does the phenix failing testing mean it's hot, hotter than the LV at that! or is there some flaw in the test that makes the phenix not pass
i wouldn't mind trying one, but i normally swing 27/28oz bats and i'm thinking it would need to be noticeably hotter to make up for the 'wrong' swing weight.
does the phenix failing testing mean it's hot, hotter than the LV at that! or is there some flaw in the test that makes the phenix not pass
i wouldn't mind trying one, but i normally swing 27/28oz bats and i'm thinking it would need to be noticeably hotter to make up for the 'wrong' swing weight.
Chico_O
Bat Addict
Great Question, I'd love to hear the answer to that- though I guess Im not surprised that a FP bat would almost fail, or fail a SP bat compression test, if the walls are thicker, even by a slight bit, in SP bats, it stands to reason, that the compression tester would pick up on that-
Some if not all of them even tell you which side of the bat walls are thinner than others- a team mate explained to me that when he got his tested they told him specifically a certain part of his bat was fairly close to failing then the rest of the bat... apparently he needs to rotate that thing!
Some if not all of them even tell you which side of the bat walls are thinner than others- a team mate explained to me that when he got his tested they told him specifically a certain part of his bat was fairly close to failing then the rest of the bat... apparently he needs to rotate that thing!
Nickelnutz
Addicted to Softballfans
Sorry to keep muddling up the OP with non-Phenix talk, but wasn't the Freak98 not run in a 26oz. because it wouldn't pass but the test but the heavier weights would? Same with the first run of the OG May98, which I thought they fixed the 26oz. to pass?
If they're using the same barrel between all weights, wouldn't that show the lower weighted ones are hotter if they're the ones not passing?
fierce_gt
Addicted to Softballfans
ooh, i have no idea. would be interested to hear more about it. maybe it has something to do with how the bats were constructed and weighted?
i can't think of a reason why a lighter bat(nothing else changing) would perform better, very curious now.