USSSA A few odd ball plays this weekend

[stang7222]

No questions really, just some observations from USSSA States this weekend.

1) Lefty batter is up, runner on first is standing on the orange safety base, not at all touching the white base. After the pitch, the umpire takes it upon himself to call deadball and call runner out for not being on the base on the pitch.

2) Batter hits a pop-up and slowly trots to 1b expecting it to be caught. Ball drops in for a hit. Batter carries bat all of the way to the base touching the bag while holding the bat. Neither umpire saw this.

3) Bang-bang play at 1b to complete a double play. Both the field and home plate umpires miss the call which both teams later agreed should have been an out. Umpires weren't able to hear the ball hit the 1B mitt bc they were allowing 1 team to blast music entirely too loud.

4) One team (the eventual champs) were using whomever they wanted to courtesy run all day while every other team was using a player in the lineup. When this was called out in the loser's bracket final, the tournament director said it was OK, just use anyone on the roster.

 

[ilyk2win]

1 - I'm gonna take credit for that one. The week before I appealed this situation and of course the umpire first didn't know the rule, then when later clarified with the TD, the umpire was educated then retorted "well I didn't see it anyway."

3 - this is the field umpire's call, and his angle is different than the player's angle, which can result in differing opinions. Bang-bang plays will always have differing opinions. If the music is too loud, you can request it be lowered, I do it all the time.

4 - sometimes this comes from the umpires mixing up the rule with the different associations (USA vs USSSA)....and then the TD says "just do whatever" which adds to the problem. State tourney should be book rules....but....NJ

 

[stang7222]

1 - I'm gonna take credit for that one. The week before I appealed this situation and of course the umpire first didn't know the rule, then when later clarified with the TD, the umpire was educated then retorted "well I didn't see it anyway."

3 - this is the field umpire's call, and his angle is different than the player's angle, which can result in differing opinions. Bang-bang plays will always have differing opinions. If the music is too loud, you can request it be lowered, I do it all the time.

4 - sometimes this comes from the umpires mixing up the rule with the different associations (USA vs USSSA)....and then the TD says "just do whatever" which adds to the problem. State tourney should be book rules....but....NJ

1- Nobody at the complex had ever heard of the rule but it makes total sense. Thanks I guess.

3- field umpire was in the correct position, the angle from basically behind 2b isn't the best. Hearing the pop of the glove would have helped. That particular umpire and myself had a few conversations earlier about umping and I told him afterwards that I usually don't allow any music for that very reason. All music on that field was turned off after that. I don't know if it was at his request or of their battery died.

4- This was PA which somehow is more of a circus than NJ.

 

[ilyk2win]

1- Nobody at the complex had ever heard of the rule but it makes total sense. Thanks I guess.

3- field umpire was in the correct position, the angle from basically behind 2b isn't the best. Hearing the pop of the glove would have helped. That particular umpire and myself had a few conversations earlier about umping and I told him afterwards that I usually don't allow any music for that very reason. All music on that field was turned off after that. I don't know if it was at his request or of their battery died.

4- This was PA which somehow is more of a circus than NJ.

Then I take NO credit.....my educational session happened in NJ. You're still welcome

 

[EAJuggalo]

No questions really, just some observations from USSSA States this weekend.

1) Lefty batter is up, runner on first is standing on the orange safety base, not at all touching the white base. After the pitch, the umpire takes it upon himself to call deadball and call runner out for not being on the base on the pitch.

2) Batter hits a pop-up and slowly trots to 1b expecting it to be caught. Ball drops in for a hit. Batter carries bat all of the way to the base touching the bag while holding the bat. Neither umpire saw this.

3) Bang-bang play at 1b to complete a double play. Both the field and home plate umpires miss the call which both teams later agreed should have been an out. Umpires weren't able to hear the ball hit the 1B mitt bc they were allowing 1 team to blast music entirely too loud.

4) One team (the eventual champs) were using whomever they wanted to courtesy run all day while every other team was using a player in the lineup. When this was called out in the loser's bracket final, the tournament director said it was OK, just use anyone on the roster.

1. Correct rule, wrong application. If the umpire knew the runner was not on the white bag the ball should not have been put into play. If the runner moved off the white bag onto the orange after the ball was put into play they would be out as soon as the ball is released.
2. With no one on base this is the field umpire's responsibility. With other runners on the plate umpire should have looked over as soon as the ball hit the ground.
3. Judgement call, shouldn't be relying on hearing the ball hit the glove, especially if the BU was out of position by being behind 2B. That said, on my field, if I think the music is loud enough that someone may have problems hearing my call, I tell them to turn it down.
4. Not the TD's call. No infraction happens until it gets appealed, if the defense doesn't appeal, there is no penalty. Once appealed, the runner should have been called out. A disagreement about this should be a protest and handled by the UIC, not the TD. If a TD comes over to my field and overturns a call of mine like this, they get my hat and can work the rest of my games. I'm done.

 

[nike33kjk]

Hold up...
1. same happened to us last weekend: runner called out. We argued the rule "the base becomes one" and got tossed.

8.4(1) • BATTER-RUNNER REACHING FIRST BASE
Each batter must reach first base without the aid of a courtesy runner. A double bag shall be used at first base, the double portion of the bag being in foul territory abutting first base. If there is a play on a batter-runner going to first base, the batter-runner must touch some portion of the double bag extending into foul territory. He will be called out if he fails to do so, except if, in the umpire's judgment, the batter-runner is avoiding a collision. The batter-runner simultaneously touching both portions of the double bag is permitted. This is NOT an appeal play. Important: The defending player has only the white base, in fair territory, to make the putout; his touch of only the bag in foul territory will not result in an out.

Once the batter-runner reaches first base, the double base shall be treated as one base and the fielder or runner may use either portion.

 

[EAJuggalo]

Hold up...
1. same happened to us last weekend: runner called out. We argued the rule "the base becomes one" and got tossed.

8.4(1) • BATTER-RUNNER REACHING FIRST BASE
Each batter must reach first base without the aid of a courtesy runner. A double bag shall be used at first base, the double portion of the bag being in foul territory abutting first base. If there is a play on a batter-runner going to first base, the batter-runner must touch some portion of the double bag extending into foul territory. He will be called out if he fails to do so, except if, in the umpire's judgment, the batter-runner is avoiding a collision. The batter-runner simultaneously touching both portions of the double bag is permitted. This is NOT an appeal play. Important: The defending player has only the white base, in fair territory, to make the putout; his touch of only the bag in foul territory will not result in an out.

Once the batter-runner reaches first base, the double base shall be treated as one base and the fielder or runner may use either portion.

What rule book are you taking that from? That looks like the USA Softball rule and not the USSSA rule with which this thread is tagged. The relevant USSSA rule is 2.7.4.Effect: If the base runner uses the colored portion at any time after the first attempt at first base and is not in contact with the white portion, then he is considered off the base. Happens usually about once a tournament I have to hold up play and tell the runner to get on the white portion of the base. Have had it happen at Worlds where a runner was tagged out while standing on the orange base.

 

[ilyk2win]

4. Not the TD's call. No infraction happens until it gets appealed, if the defense doesn't appeal, there is no penalty. Once appealed, the runner should have been called out. A disagreement about this should be a protest and handled by the UIC, not the TD. If a TD comes over to my field and overturns a call of mine like this, they get my hat and can work the rest of my games. I'm done.

Most of these smaller "State" tourneys don't even have a UIC, just a TD. And I can't think of a scenario below Conference where a UIC is going to over-rule a TD's input as a generalization here in the northeast.

 

[EAJuggalo]

Most of these smaller "State" tourneys don't even have a UIC, just a TD. And I can't think of a scenario below Conference where a UIC is going to over-rule a TD's input as a generalization here in the northeast.

PA is kind of a big state to not have a UIC assigned. MN does it and they only have 10-12 teams play at State. IL this weekend is a one day but will have an assigned UIC. I may end up the UIC for WI state in a couple weeks and rule by phone since I'm not going to be available to work.

Who is the NJ UIC? I know the director and know he usually doesn't want any part of umpire issues.

 

[ilyk2win]

PA is kind of a big state to not have a UIC assigned. MN does it and they only have 10-12 teams play at State. IL this weekend is a one day but will have an assigned UIC. I may end up the UIC for WI state in a couple weeks and rule by phone since I'm not going to be available to work.

Who is the NJ UIC? I know the director and know he usually doesn't want any part of umpire issues.

I think it's probably Brian or Bruce, depending on who is there.

 

[USA All the wAy]

Slightly off topic but in USA softball you can carry the damn bat all the way around the bases if you want..

 

[Sailorjoe6308]

1. Correct rule, wrong application. If the umpire knew the runner was not on the white bag the ball should not have been put into play. If the runner moved off the white bag onto the orange after the ball was put into play they would be out as soon as the ball is released.
2. With no one on base this is the field umpire's responsibility. With other runners on the plate umpire should have looked over as soon as the ball hit the ground.
3. Judgement call, shouldn't be relying on hearing the ball hit the glove, especially if the BU was out of position by being behind 2B. That said, on my field, if I think the music is loud enough that someone may have problems hearing my call, I tell them to turn it down.
4. Not the TD's call. No infraction happens until it gets appealed, if the defense doesn't appeal, there is no penalty. Once appealed, the runner should have been called out. A disagreement about this should be a protest and handled by the UIC, not the TD. If a TD comes over to my field and overturns a call of mine like this, they get my hat and can work the rest of my games. I'm done.

You would hate the guy who does USSSA tourneys where I live. He over rules umpires a lot! The TDs who do WSL, AFA, USA AND SSUSA here leave it all to their UICs and umpires.

 

[EAJuggalo]

You would hate the guy who does USSSA tourneys where I live. He over rules umpires a lot! The TDs who do WSL, AFA, USA AND SSUSA here leave it all to their UICs and umpires.

Where do you live and who is the director? If I ask the question at the start of the tournament, "Anything not in these rules is governed by national rules, right?" And am told yes, then if the director comes over and tries to change my call, he can have my hat too and finish the game himself. I'm fortunate in that there are only three people in the country that can overrule me, and none of them are TDs. I'll make a phone call to any of the three if I feel like I need to clarify something.

 

[Sailorjoe6308]

Western AZ closer to Vegas than any other big city. The local Utrip guy is named Gary.