Answers from Horween

L

Leatherman

New Member
I enjoy reading opinions on this forum about why “new” Horween seems different from the old stuff. I figured I should contribute something too, so I wrote to Horween and ran a couple of those theories by them to see what they had to say.
I got a reply from someone with the last name “Horween”, so I've got to believe the info they shared is as accurate and authoritative as we're going to get. The answers below are word for word from their reply email:

Q1: Has there been any change to the chemicals or tanning process used for your ball glove leather (referred to as code55 leather by at least one manufacturer), such as changes required by the EPA, etc.?
A1: Code 55 is tanned the same as it always was, but the featherlite product is the same product with different oils

Q2: Have modern beef-growing practices affected the quality or characteristics of the hides you receive to any noticeable degree?
A2: It is really hard to comment accurately. Our feeling is that some of the characteristics of the leather are different because of the practice of growing the animals larger more quickly.

Q3: Do glove manufacturers specify how thick of hides they need, then have you split it for them, or do they take whatever is produced and then split it themselves?
A3: Both, they specify for the thickest parts of the glove and then they split parts for the where the glove requires thinner leather.

Q4: Do the glove companies get to control the oil content of the leather they buy, or is that left to the discretion of your tanners?
A4: They request certain levels that we then match

So, in summary, the tanning process is exactly the same, hides are subtly different, and thinner oilier code55 exists because the manufacturers demand it.
The biggest surprise for me was learning that they can turn good code55 into that bizarre featherlite stuff just by adding different oils. Who would've guessed?
Thanks to everyone who expressed an opinion or theory about the subject in previous threads. I’m sorry I didn't have time to find who originally suggested each theory.
Anyway, I hope this helps further the conversation and maybe get some talk going on the boards; they've been pretty slow lately.
 
NYC

NYC

Swag on 100.
Makes sense, the cows grow faster in mass using hormones or whatever they use...so the hide has less time to mature (my guess). And Rawlings or whoever carries Horween gloves (DMS) asks for more oiled leathers to lessen the splitting that goes on between the fingers, and to have a faster break in process. I personally am sometimes torn between the amount of oil I prefer, yes I love a brick of a glove but I hate dunking it to speed up the process and at the same time I hate having to spend a year or longer breaking it in. I don't mind the amount of oil in the new batch of DM gloves but I do mind the thickness or lack thereof of the hide.
Thanks for posting this.
 
Swinging Bunt

Swinging Bunt

Addicted to Softballfans
Leatherman said:
I enjoy reading opinions on this forum about why “new” Horween seems different from the old stuff. I figured I should contribute something too, so I wrote to Horween and ran a couple of those theories by them to see what they had to say.
I got a reply from someone with the last name “Horween”, so I've got to believe the info they shared is as accurate and authoritative as we're going to get. The answers below are word for word from their reply email:

Q1: Has there been any change to the chemicals or tanning process used for your ball glove leather (referred to as code55 leather by at least one manufacturer), such as changes required by the EPA, etc.?
A1: Code 55 is tanned the same as it always was, but the featherlite product is the same product with different oils

Q2: Have modern beef-growing practices affected the quality or characteristics of the hides you receive to any noticeable degree?
A2: It is really hard to comment accurately. Our feeling is that some of the characteristics of the leather are different because of the practice of growing the animals larger more quickly.

Q3: Do glove manufacturers specify how thick of hides they need, then have you split it for them, or do they take whatever is produced and then split it themselves?
A3: Both, they specify for the thickest parts of the glove and then they split parts for the where the glove requires thinner leather.

Q4: Do the glove companies get to control the oil content of the leather they buy, or is that left to the discretion of your tanners?
A4: They request certain levels that we then match

So, in summary, the tanning process is exactly the same, hides are subtly different, and thinner oilier code55 exists because the manufacturers demand it.
The biggest surprise for me was learning that they can turn good code55 into that bizarre featherlite stuff just by adding different oils. Who would've guessed?
Thanks to everyone who expressed an opinion or theory about the subject in previous threads. I’m sorry I didn't have time to find who originally suggested each theory.
Anyway, I hope this helps further the conversation and maybe get some talk going on the boards; they've been pretty slow lately.
Click to expand...
Good job getting a reply! A lot of times (with all companies across all fields), knowledgeable customer service becomes scarce.

But I will say the best part for me (with that Q&A) is that (at some point or another) Rous (and a handful of others) already brought that insight over the years. Unfortunately, the majority of those that would remember are no longer active (or banned for obsolete rules no longer in effect).

As for forum traffic, a combination of several factors are to blame (it would be like beating a dead horse to bother pointing them out again).

Regardless, the post is a good refresher to bring to the forefront as opposed to having to search for all of Rous’s (and Mav’s, etc.) posts. I’m curious if Horween would indulge us to the history of the usage of the “C55” term within their company.
 
L

Leatherman

New Member
NYC said:
Makes sense, the cows grow faster in mass using hormones or whatever they use...so the hide has less time to mature (my guess). And Rawlings or whoever carries Horween gloves (DMS) asks for more oiled leathers to lessen the splitting that goes on between the fingers, and to have a faster break in process. I personally am sometimes torn between the amount of oil I prefer, yes I love a brick of a glove but I hate dunking it to speed up the process and at the same time I hate having to spend a year or longer breaking it in. I don't mind the amount of oil in the new batch of DM gloves but I do mind the thickness or lack thereof of the hide.
Thanks for posting this.
Click to expand...
It's interesting that even Horween has a hard time quantifying exactly how the hides are affected by faster growth rates. And they must process many thousands of them each year. But it certainly seems like thick and dry is a no-go with the new stuff.

I would personally be fine with an oilier code55 if it also had good thickness. I think it would have enough structure to hold up to anything I could dole out while not taking forever to get playable.
 
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L

Leatherman

New Member
Swinging Bunt said:
Good job getting a reply! A lot of times (with all companies across all fields), knowledgeable customer service becomes scarce.
Click to expand...
No doubt it helped that the person who replied was an actual member of the Horween family. I still have the email filed away so I may bounce it back with a couple followup questions.

Like you said, nothing in the reply was necessarily new info; the forum members here are pretty smart people, and accurately theorized the main causes of the different leather long ago. I mainly just wanted to see if we could move beyond speculation amongst ourselves and obtain some sort of formal validation (or refutation) of those theories from the tannery itself. I think that box can now be checked, thanks again to all the board members who have weighed in over the years.
 
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Wally Gator

Wally Gator

Starting Player
Just a reminder that often gets overlooked. Horween supplied leather to Rawlings in other colors. I think people sometimes see Horween and instantly think tan. Dry black, oiled black, featherlite black, oiled tan, featherlite tan, royal blue, red, chocolate, and camel are some other colored leathers that Horween has supplied through the years, many while gloves were Made in USA. Camel was some of the thickest, stiffest leather that Bob C could get at the SLCS. Not happy with current tan? Well let's see how modern dry black Horween differs.
 
Rous

Rous

Addicted to Softballfans
Awesome interview!

On their list of leathers, Horween has one called "Glove Leather" and one called "Featherlite" but I have never been able to figure out where the OT black fits in (there must be 20+ different categories). I have one of the dryer black Horween gloves in the house and it has the same matte finish as the Featherlite... perhaps the oil tanned black is just "glove leather" with more oil. But then that begs the question, what's with the Featehrlite? Lighter in weight but with more oil? Different oil? I have not owned one, are they really lightweight? Or just soft?

And these oils are part of the tanning process, not something added later like Mizuno's VOP leather. In tanning, they first strip out all the oils that could later go rancid and then add some controlled amount back in to get the feel they want. I wish I knew what they added as the only natural oils I know that don't eventually go bad are lanolin and walnut oil.

If you put together a second round of questions, ask if there is any way for mere mortals to buy a 1/4 or 1/2 hide of tan glove leather!
 
NYC

NYC

Swag on 100.
Rous said:
Awesome interview!

On their list of leathers, Horween has one called "Glove Leather" and one called "Featherlite" but I have never been able to figure out where the OT black fits in (there must be 20+ different categories). I have one of the dryer black Horween gloves in the house and it has the same matte finish as the Featherlite... perhaps the oil tanned black is just "glove leather" with more oil. But then that begs the question, what's with the Featehrlite? Lighter in weight but with more oil? Different oil? I have not owned one, are they really lightweight? Or just soft?

And these oils are part of the tanning process, not something added later like Mizuno's VOP leather. In tanning, they first strip out all the oils that could later go rancid and then add some controlled amount back in to get the feel they want. I wish I knew what they added as the only natural oils I know that don't eventually go bad are lanolin and walnut oil.

If you put together a second round of questions, ask if there is any way for mere mortals to buy a 1/4 or 1/2 hide of tan glove leather!
Click to expand...
The Oiled black is probably the same exact leather as the tan, except instead of using tan coloring they use black.
 
MaverickAH

MaverickAH

Well-Known Member
Leatherman said:
I enjoy reading opinions on this forum about why “new” Horween seems different from the old stuff. I figured I should contribute something too, so I wrote to Horween and ran a couple of those theories by them to see what they had to say.
I got a reply from someone with the last name “Horween”, so I've got to believe the info they shared is as accurate and authoritative as we're going to get. The answers below are word for word from their reply email:

Q1: Has there been any change to the chemicals or tanning process used for your ball glove leather (referred to as code55 leather by at least one manufacturer), such as changes required by the EPA, etc.?
A1: Code 55 is tanned the same as it always was, but the featherlite product is the same product with different oils

Q2: Have modern beef-growing practices affected the quality or characteristics of the hides you receive to any noticeable degree?
A2: It is really hard to comment accurately. Our feeling is that some of the characteristics of the leather are different because of the practice of growing the animals larger more quickly.

Q3: Do glove manufacturers specify how thick of hides they need, then have you split it for them, or do they take whatever is produced and then split it themselves?
A3: Both, they specify for the thickest parts of the glove and then they split parts for the where the glove requires thinner leather.

Q4: Do the glove companies get to control the oil content of the leather they buy, or is that left to the discretion of your tanners?
A4: They request certain levels that we then match

So, in summary, the tanning process is exactly the same, hides are subtly different, and thinner oilier code55 exists because the manufacturers demand it.
The biggest surprise for me was learning that they can turn good code55 into that bizarre featherlite stuff just by adding different oils. Who would've guessed?
Thanks to everyone who expressed an opinion or theory about the subject in previous threads. I’m sorry I didn't have time to find who originally suggested each theory.
Anyway, I hope this helps further the conversation and maybe get some talk going on the boards; they've been pretty slow lately.
Click to expand...

  1. I would take exception to you categorizing the answer to Q2 as "hides are subtly different". That's not what A2 says!
  2. Exactly who is this Horween family member? Is it a 20yo nephew or grandson who has only been in the business a short while? Is it someone who attained the name through marriage? Or is it a senior member who has been in the business for 50 years? Yes, the answer matters.

As a person of a particular longevity, I can say with absolute certainty that current "code 55" leather is most definitely not your grandfather's "code 55" leather! I do attribute a large portion of that to the way that modern cattle is raised. While I can't say whether or not the actual tanning process for the leather has changed over the years, I highly suspect that the amount of oil added back into the leather has.
 
smarkley3

smarkley3

Certified Trap Hoe
One thing that many seem to miss about Horween is that it is a tannery, they make leather! As they stated, they offer leathers that are pre specified by there production and make them per customer spec. If a customer is willing to pay for a spec run, they will do it. Otherwise you can buy the appropriate amount of what they manufacture. That they made Code 55 and Rawlings found and bought it is a great hook up for all of us, but that is not always the way it happens. It takes a lot of hard work (and time) to find good leather for gloves and it takes even more money. That said kudos to Mr or Ms Horween for even bothering to answer, I dont know a lot of big company's would bother and care enough to reply.
 
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