ASA ball to the catcher

[titan41]

if a ball is tiped back to the catcher, does it have to be over 6 feet for the batter to be called out?

 

[chiefgator]

No

Check this THREAD

 

[NCASAUmp]

if a ball is tiped back to the catcher, does it have to be over 6 feet for the batter to be called out?

No.

If the ball goes sharply and directly to the catcher's glove or hand AND is caught by the catcher, then it's just a foul tip, which is just a strike on the batter (same as a swing and miss).

However, if the ball goes anywhere OTHER than directly to the catcher's glove or hand (ie., chest, face, knee, etc.), OR if there is any perceptible arc when the ball comes off the bat, it's handled the same as any other hit ball. If it's caught, it's an out. If it's not, it's a foul ball.

 

[RDD15]

Basically, if the catcher moves his glove at all, it isn't a tip because the ball did not go DIRECTLY to the glove.

 

[NCASAUmp]

Basically, if the catcher moves his glove at all, it isn't a tip because the ball did not go DIRECTLY to the glove.

Bingo.

 

[BretMan]

The old rule in ASA used to say that any batted ball going higher than the batter's head could not be ruled as a foul tip. ASA has since removed that requirement from their foul tip rule. So have some other sanctioning bodies, while others have not.

But the "higher than the batter's" head thing only related to whether a batted ball was a foul tip or not. Where most people got this wrong was incorrectly assuming that if a foul tip could not go higher than the batter's head, then the opposite must be true- that any other batted ball had to go at least that high before being caught for an out (like on a pop fly over foul ground). That was never the case.

There has never been a rule that says a pop fly- either fair or foul- had to reach some minimum height requirement before being caught for an out. If the ball comes off the bat with "perceptible arc" (that is, not "sharply and directly" in a straight line right to the catcher's hands/mitt) then it's treated the same as any other batted fly ball- whether it went six inches high or six feet or sixty feet. It can be caught for an out exactly the same as any other batted fly ball.

 

[Fin09]

OK, I'm glad this has been brought up- I have a question about this.

3-2 count with a courtesy foul (1 called strike, 1 foul ball, then must be fair ball).

Batter, with 1 strike on him or her, hits what is to be interpreted as a foul tip directly into the catcher's glove. Would this be an out, or just the batter's courtesy foul? I always interpreted this to be the same as a caught foul tip on the 3rd strike in baseball, and would think that since it's the 2nd strike, it would be an out. I've seen it called both ways, though, so one of them is incorrect.

 

[NCASAUmp]

OK, I'm glad this has been brought up- I have a question about this.

3-2 count with a courtesy foul (1 called strike, 1 foul ball, then must be fair ball).

Batter, with 1 strike on him or her, hits what is to be interpreted as a foul tip directly into the catcher's glove. Would this be an out, or just the batter's courtesy foul? I always interpreted this to be the same as a caught foul tip on the 3rd strike in baseball, and would think that since it's the 2nd strike, it would be an out. I've seen it called both ways, though, so one of them is incorrect.

Well, for one, a foul tip must be caught, so it's definitely not a foul ball.

Two, a foul tip is handled the exact same as a swing and miss.

So that being said, that would be strike 3 for an out, regardless of whether or not the batter has a courtesy foul left. Don't get too hung up with the word "foul" in the term "foul tip." It's not the same as a foul ball.

 

[USSSA]

in utrip, if you foul the second strike you will get a third strike almost always, but they use a foul tip rule like baseball, seen it happen one time

 

[Fin09]

Well, for one, a foul tip must be caught, so it's definitely not a foul ball.

Two, a foul tip is handled the exact same as a swing and miss.

So that being said, that would be strike 3 for an out, regardless of whether or not the batter has a courtesy foul left. Don't get too hung up with the word "foul" in the term "foul tip." It's not the same as a foul ball.

Thanks- that's what I thought it should be.

 

[thekoo]

No.

If the ball goes sharply and directly to the catcher's glove or hand AND is caught by the catcher, then it's just a foul tip, which is just a strike on the batter (same as a swing and miss).

However, if the ball goes anywhere OTHER than directly to the catcher's glove or hand (ie., chest, face, knee, etc.), OR if there is any perceptible arc when the ball comes off the bat, it's handled the same as any other hit ball. If it's caught, it's an out. If it's not, it's a foul ball.

I got called out on this BS last night. Ball went straight to the catcher and got called out. Stood there looking at the ump, simply astonished that a play so obviously easy to call was blown right in front of him.

 

[RDD15]

I got called out on this BS last night. Ball went straight to the catcher and got called out. Stood there looking at the ump, simply astonished that a play so obviously easy to call was blown right in front of him.

It is going to be pretty rare in slowpitch for a foul tip to be called if the ump has a clue. If the catcher moved his glove an inch after your bat hit the ball, then you are out.

 

[NCASAUmp]

I got called out on this BS last night. Ball went straight to the catcher and got called out. Stood there looking at the ump, simply astonished that a play so obviously easy to call was blown right in front of him.

So you have eyes in the back of your head? You saw that the ball had no perceptible arc and that the ball went straight back into the catcher's glove?

Somehow, I doubt this.

 

[NCASAUmp]

It is going to be pretty rare in slowpitch for a foul tip to be called if the ump has a clue. If the catcher moved his glove an inch after your bat hit the ball, then you are out.

I've made the call maybe... 5 times in 17+ years?

 

[joncon]

I got called out on this BS last night. Ball went straight to the catcher and got called out. Stood there looking at the ump, simply astonished that a play so obviously easy to call was blown right in front of him.

Another player with a better angle than the ump ^ .




You didn't even see the ball so shut up, sit down and make contact next time.

That's why I could never ump. I'd be saying schit like that ^ all the time and probably get my ass kicked in the parking lot. It has been my observation that most arguing comes after a really crappy hit. I think the psychological term is transference.

 

[fitzpats]

OK. I'm resurrecting this from the dead because of a play tonight. I've seen that RDD15 says if the catcher moves his glove an inch, that would constitute a catch over foul territory and not a tip. What constitutes "moving" the glove? If the glove moves from hanging at the catcher's side to where the ball is, but there is no perceptible arc, would that be a catch or a foul tip?

Also, talking with a teammate, he said he saw on these boards that there really can't be a foul tip in slowpitch because the ball will "never" go from bat to glove immediately and without movement. He says there is always some change of direction, so it can't be tipped. Tips are only for fastpitch.

Finally, ump at the game said that if you catch it with your glove or hand, you are out regardless. If you use any other part of the body, it is a foul ball. Regardless of count.

Is anything that I wrote correct, or is it all wrong? Here's the play from tonight. I was catching, and stand there looking like a dummy till I see the ball do something where I need to react. Glove just hangs at my side until I need to move it to get where the ball is at. Batter swung, but hit ball basically straight back. I luckily got my glove in front of it, but I don't believe there was any arc. Seemed, IMHO, that it went from bat to glove directly, even though I moved my glove from my side to the point of catch. Did the umps blow the call, using my limited perception of what happened? Just curious as it made no difference, and call went in our favor.

 

[NCASAUmp]

OK. I'm resurrecting this from the dead because of a play tonight. I've seen that RDD15 says if the catcher moves his glove an inch, that would constitute a catch over foul territory and not a tip. What constitutes "moving" the glove? If the glove moves from hanging at the catcher's side to where the ball is, but there is no perceptible arc, would that be a catch or a foul tip?

If we're able to see that the catcher moved his glove an inch, we're not watching the ball close enough. Realistically, that is very improbable, and it would probably be called a foul tip.

If it's hanging at the catcher's side and he has to move it to catch the ball, then it's a catch.

Also, talking with a teammate, he said he saw on these boards that there really can't be a foul tip in slowpitch because the ball will "never" go from bat to glove immediately and without movement. He says there is always some change of direction, so it can't be tipped. Tips are only for fastpitch.

Not true. They're certainly rare, but it's definitely possible. Granted, I've only called about 5 or so in my life, but they DO happen!

Finally, ump at the game said that if you catch it with your glove or hand, you are out regardless. If you use any other part of the body, it is a foul ball. Regardless of count.

No.

Is anything that I wrote correct, or is it all wrong? Here's the play from tonight. I was catching, and stand there looking like a dummy till I see the ball do something where I need to react. Glove just hangs at my side until I need to move it to get where the ball is at. Batter swung, but hit ball basically straight back. I luckily got my glove in front of it, but I don't believe there was any arc. Seemed, IMHO, that it went from bat to glove directly, even though I moved my glove from my side to the point of catch. Did the umps blow the call, using my limited perception of what happened? Just curious as it made no difference, and call went in our favor.

Sounds like a catch for an out to me, but true foul tips happen so fast, I'd have to see it. I'm leaning towards caught fly ball for an out.

 

[BretMan]

Since I'm mainly a baseball and fastpitch guy, I'm used to seeing a lot of legitimate foul tips. So maybe I'm not fully up to speed on how you might rule this in slow pitch.

Isn't the bottom line the trajectory the ball took off the bat? If it is "sharp and direct" in a straight line, it can be caught for a foul tip and is just a strike. If it comes off the bat with a "perceptible arc" (ie: NOT a direct straight line), treat it like any other batted fly ball which can be caught for an out.

I don't really think that the "if the catcher moves the glove one inch" thing is an absolute. It's not part of the rule about or definition of foul tips. It sounds like an oversimplified rule of thumb for judging foul tips and maybe even part of the Rules Supplement being taken out of context.

Since slow pitch catchers rarely will hold their glove like a target, with the palm facing the pitcher, they're just about always going to be moving their glove to catch a ball that's lined straight back- either from just having the glove hand hanging down by their side or turning the glove over from holding it palm up.

 

[fitzpats]

Since I'm mainly a baseball and fastpitch guy, I'm used to seeing a lot of legitimate foul tips. So maybe I'm not fully up to speed on how you might rule this in slow pitch.

Isn't the bottom line the trajectory the ball took off the bat? If it is "sharp and direct" in a straight line, it can be caught for a foul tip and is just a strike. If it comes off the bat with a "perceptible arc" (ie: NOT a direct straight line), treat it like any other batted fly ball which can be caught for an out.

I don't really think that the "if the catcher moves the glove one inch" thing is an absolute. It's not part of the rule about or definition of foul tips. It sounds like an oversimplified rule of thumb for judging foul tips and maybe even part of the Rules Supplement being taken out of context.

Since slow pitch catchers rarely will hold their glove like a target, with the palm facing the pitcher, they're just about always going to be moving their glove to catch a ball that's lined straight back- either from just having the glove hand hanging down by their side or turning the glove over from holding it palm up.

That's what I was thinking as well, regarding slow pitch softball. As for baseball/fast pitch, what would it be rule if the catcher had heel-palm down giving a target, but had to flip the heel-palm up to get a catch of a ball hit straight down from a pitch? Catcher moved the glove, but the ball went straight and directly to the catcher's glove that was moved, IMHO.

 

[RDD15]

My feeling is that if the catcher had to move his glove to catch the ball, the ball did not travel "directly" to the glove.

 

[irishmafia]

My feeling is that if the catcher had to move his glove to catch the ball, the ball did not travel "directly" to the glove.

Now we are back to "define moving the glove".

This is not part of the rule, but a relatively accurate indicator which can be used by the umpire to determine the difference between a foul tip and a ball in flight.

The reason a "foul tip" is handled the same as a swing and miss is because there is literally no affect on the ball if it goes directly from the bat to the catcher's glove/hand.

The reason you see them more in FP is because of the speed of the pitch. It is so fast that the contact with the bat is minimal and does not affect the determined path of the pitch. Since a SP ball is easier to hit, the possibility of only catching enough of the ball that it would not change course is minute.

 

[yem549]

So if I'm catching, standing behind the batter, next to blue, and the ball is fouled straight back at my face, I put my glove up to protect myself and catch the ball, is the batter safe or out? How about if its fouled slightly to the right of my face and I grab it with my bare hands? One strike on the batter at the time, just curious as both have happened this year and batter was just given a second strike.

 

[joncon]

So if I'm catching, standing behind the batter, next to blue, and the ball is fouled straight back at my face, I put my glove up to protect myself and catch the ball, is the batter safe or out?

If the batter swung at a really crappy pitch (at his face level) it's could be foul tip.

Point of contact, directly back = directly tip.

Obviously a judgement call. I play behind the plate a LOT and have never seen one go back with NO arc. Physically almost impossible.


My theory is, you just missed a slowpitch softball by TWO INCHES so shut up and sit down.

 

[rdsox34]

slowpitch foul tip is a ball fouled off that goes over umps head or approx 6ft is what we where told

 

[BretMan]

You were told wrong. WAY wrong...