Calling on the SBF Brain Trust!
- Thread starter ANNASDAD
- Start date
ANNASDAD
The Veteran
Beautiful glove Stick, I’m “sorta” starting to regret selling mine! It really is a fantastic size & pattern!
StickCollector
Active Member
Someone here messaged me after I paid too much for this one. Maybe I can pass that info on to you.
StickCollector
Active Member
PM sent.
etnstudios
Addicted to Softballfans
what # did you get?
StickCollector
Active Member
Number 79.
Committed if he can find it
StickCollector
Active Member
Yes, committed has reached out to me.
MaverickAH
Well-Known Member
I swear to you that if I was still playing & had the disposable income, I'd be saying "F" the $500 & I'd have a Nokona Bloodline Edge on its way to me post haste! I took a look at them online & instantly fell in love!
StickCollector
Active Member
Nice looking glove Mav, just concerned if they get too floppy.
ANNASDAD
The Veteran
Yep, nice looking glove! And in the words of the lovely and talented @Party mafia, what's that sucker weigh?
Website uses the words "extremely lightweight!" so there's your answer Jerry! They do look nice Maverick, I've never owned a Nokona before! I change my likes, dislikes, and glove opinions like I change underwear, guess I'm sorta on an I-web kick right now, a full size 12" I-web with NO velcro would make me a nice glove!
MaverickAH
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't even care...….
Yep, nice looking glove! And in the words of the lovely and talented @Party mafia, what's that sucker weigh?
They do look nice Maverick, I've never owned a Nokona before! I change my likes, dislikes, and glove opinions like I change underwear, guess I'm sorta on an I-web kick right now, a full size 12" I-web with NO velcro would make me a nice glove!
I owned & briefly used a couple of Nokona's back in the late 90's. I found that I wasn't partial to their softball models but my biggest glove regret is trading away my BM-76. I just didn't have the time to work on it, get comfortable with it & break it in fully. The heel padding was stupid thick & I had major problems shaping it how I wanted. I wound up not using it so I traded it for a bat, I think? The fascinating thing about that glove was that the pattern allowed the ball to naturally flow up into the web for easy, quick transfer.
My biggest criticism of Nokona is that they need to update & expand some of their patterns, especially their web offerings. They're stale! I wish that they would've hired Glove Cowboy instead of Marucci!
ANNASDAD
The Veteran
That's an interesting comment! I wish early on when I first started going down this glove road that I would have tried a Legend series with the Sandstone leather!
My problem with EVERY Nokona I've ever looked at or tried on is, the insides feel like they were finished with a bastard file, they're rough!!
NYC
Swag on 100.
Nokona could be so much better than what it is.
NYC
Swag on 100.
I disagree. The people running it are just clueless. Again, I don't know their financials so maybe they make more money doing things the way they do it, but they go out of their way to make a soft glove and charge you $300+ for it.
MaverickAH
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure what the issue is with the insides. That's something I've never experienced. My only negative issues with them are:
- Not a fan of their walnut leather. The leather is slick & it does get soft.
- Not a fan of their softball specific models.
- Not a fan of their pricing structure. Yeah, I know they're Made in USA, but still...….
I kind of get it. Nokona wants to still make gloves the way they did 50+ years ago. Very little automation & heavy on the human touch. They want to pay their workers a good living wage & still make their gloves here so their business model says that they have to charge XXX amount of $$$ to do so. Still, they increases in price that they've had over the last 20+ years is ridiculous. I paid about $95 for my BM-76 (on sale) & $129 for my other Nokona (12.5", Don't remember the model #(AMG600-CW)). The same glove from them would cost me $300 today!
It would be nice if Chad could develop a relationship with them but somehow I think that they would be difficult......
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StickCollector
Active Member
I did like the look of the older bloodlines. I think the comments about lack of options do turn potential customers away. I get that they are US made. But for that type of price, I would expect to build a more unique glove. At least a few more web options.
NYC
Swag on 100.
I disagree that they use cheaper materials and Rawlings or Wilson use "better" or more expensive materials that would cost $500 if Nokona made them. They use high end materials, the problem is they literally soak their gloves with lanolin and then steam them purposely to soften them. They could 100% make a stiff glove, they use steerhide, kip, and even kangaroo leather which can't be cheaper than steerhide and pretty much all of them are soft or get soft.
Rous
Addicted to Softballfans
I had a pretty decent relationship with Rob Storey 3-6 years ago. This was after the fire and the brutal private equity firm fiasco. 1) their factory burned down in 2006 (I think) and then a private equity firm offered an injection of cash and "expertise." That partnership got them to ramp up marketing expenditure, start making gloves in China, and contract with the Massachusetts factory that later made Insignia. The Insignia plant had high tech dyes that minimized waste by using a computer to maximize the number of pieces cut from a hide. Problem was, they assumed leather was uniform thickness and that direction didn't matter. Gloves might start out looking good, but then would start to get misshapen. When the economy tanked in 2009, they got hit hard. The Mass factory was owed a bunch of cash and it was forgiven in exchange for keeping the patterns (which is why Insignia gloves look like Nokona patterns). To bail out the rest, Cutters Gloves bought them. Then someone wanted to buy out Cutters and the owner sold Cutters and kept Nokona. Last I heard (3 years ago), they were moving all management to Texas (Cutters had been in Phoenix).
Rob figures they cannot compete with Rawlings or Wilson head to head so they go with the funky leathers and MIA as the marketing move. The fingers stalls are different as they put the rough side in and the smooth side hidden inside the glove (opposite of what other do). They don't have the R&D budget to get gloves 100% "right." Even before Cutters bought them, Rob and family lived a pretty middle income lifestyle. If they took home $100,000 per year (in 2020 dollars) I'd be surprised. In the 1980s they sold all the vintage glove dyes for scrap to keep it all going. At the same time, the last time I talked to Rob (2014-ish) the biggest problem he had was attracting skilled leather workers to Nocona (nosey economist, I asked and he said he paid about $15 per hour). He also said that for a $300 glove (retail), he would get about $150 and materials were about $50 per glove. The extra $100 covered labor, management, marketing, profit, etc. I offered to meet with him and discuss gloves and what guys wanted, but it never happened. management of the entire plant (maybe 50 workers) is just Rob and one plant manager. Most of what they think about is getting through the day.
Rob figures they cannot compete with Rawlings or Wilson head to head so they go with the funky leathers and MIA as the marketing move. The fingers stalls are different as they put the rough side in and the smooth side hidden inside the glove (opposite of what other do). They don't have the R&D budget to get gloves 100% "right." Even before Cutters bought them, Rob and family lived a pretty middle income lifestyle. If they took home $100,000 per year (in 2020 dollars) I'd be surprised. In the 1980s they sold all the vintage glove dyes for scrap to keep it all going. At the same time, the last time I talked to Rob (2014-ish) the biggest problem he had was attracting skilled leather workers to Nocona (nosey economist, I asked and he said he paid about $15 per hour). He also said that for a $300 glove (retail), he would get about $150 and materials were about $50 per glove. The extra $100 covered labor, management, marketing, profit, etc. I offered to meet with him and discuss gloves and what guys wanted, but it never happened. management of the entire plant (maybe 50 workers) is just Rob and one plant manager. Most of what they think about is getting through the day.
NYC
Swag on 100.
Is making an original die the hardest part of making a glove? I mean me or you can probably buy a bunch of horween hides but then what?
MaverickAH
Well-Known Member
It's not the hardest part, it's the most expensive part.
I remember doing some research, at some point, on the cost of a set of industrial grade dies & machinery for making a baseball glove. It was a long time ago but somehow the number of 40k is stuck in my head. Now that could be totally wrong so don't hold me to that but it's definitely not a cheap proposition. Rous might be more in tune as to the actual numbers.
Rous
Addicted to Softballfans
I have no idea what they cost, but I am sure they weren't much in the scrap market. With 15-20 different pieces needed for a glove (including the interior), I'm sure a set isn't cheap.
NYC
Swag on 100.
No I meant making the actual die, like how do you come up with the pattern? Or do you just find the old patents and just copy past patterns?
Rous
Addicted to Softballfans
Like a lot of things, they start with what came before them, modify it a bit, try it out, adjust, etc. While we think of 1980s gloves as pretty modern, a lot of them were pretty clunky compared to what we have now. The new Pro-200, Pro-T and Pro-H feel old in comparison to a Pro200, Pro601 or Pro302. A lot of the Nokona softball patterns date back to the 1970s and 80s.
Before my first tour of Nokona, the woman who worked as the receptionist and administrative assistant was sitting at a front desk with big scissors cutting out patterns that a designer had put together. It was a prototype. As an iterative process and I think Nokona is a bit quicker to say, "yeah, that's good enough."
But since the Cutters guy took over, they have an actual design team. They put out one great 13" pattern, but in the heavy leathers they use, it was like 30 oz. The Buckaroo versions (kangaroo leather back) are much lighter.
ShortYellowBus
Well-Known Member
I worked for, and obviously not a leather manufacturer, a medical device manufacturer that spent 200m on replication of a dozen stamping machines. The company was outsourcing some of its manufacturing.
And it took four years for those 200m to go straight into the trash. They didn’t work. They were inconsistent and eventually broke down.
Sorry for the long story. My point is, the costs of the manufacturer in today’s dollars is much higher than we all think. $40k seems like to a lot, but it’s not feasible.
And it took four years for those 200m to go straight into the trash. They didn’t work. They were inconsistent and eventually broke down.
Sorry for the long story. My point is, the costs of the manufacturer in today’s dollars is much higher than we all think. $40k seems like to a lot, but it’s not feasible.
Part of the problem may have been what they were paying skilled leather workers. In 2014 if I wanted a skilled line cook (not chef caliber worker but someone who understood the job) who would be semi-loyal I had to pay 15$ an hour. And there are lots of skilled line cooks compared to skilled leather workers (lots more restaurants than places that use skilled leather workers but it still seems low). I don’t know the market but just my gut reaction if that was his biggest issue...
ANNASDAD
The Veteran
Threw with Anna for probably 20 minutes today after cutting grass, this one is quickly becoming my favorite! Yeah we’re going to have to figure out an NP something for the September RGGC!
A 12” NP6 version of this exact glove (with a different color liner) would be perfect!
A 12” NP6 version of this exact glove (with a different color liner) would be perfect!
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