Any fly ball ...catch or no catch

[jbe_17]

Not sure how this is suppose to be handled. Just wondering if you guys have some imput.

Scenario:
Runner on 1B. Hitter hits a lazy fly ball into the outfield in between RC and RF, they almost collide, but the RF goes in front of the RC and the RC dives and appears to catch the ball. The runner who was already past 2B runs back to first because the OF automatically sticks the ball in the air making it appear as though he caught the ball. The umpires don't make a sound. The one closest to the play, in the field, is looking at the runner and the home plate umpire makes no movement at all. As the runner is running back to first because he thinks the OF made the catch, the hitter passes him and keeps running. The umpires rule no catch was made, making the runner out and the hitter remains at third.

My question is which umpire is responsible for making that call? Also on close catches vs non catches, do the umpires have a resoponsiblity to make a signal EITHER way to notify everyone of the "current" ruling so that players can continue the play?

Thanks!

 

[NCASAUmp]

Which association? ASA? USSSA?

 

[jbe_17]

Which association? ASA? USSSA?

To be honest, I didn't think it would matter. I figured the ruling for something like that would be one of those across the board ones. This was in a USSSA tournament.

 

[BretMan]

For "Any" association...

They're going to have guidelines that make the catch/no call the responsibility of one umpire or the other. That might vary depending on the association, and it might vary depending on other circumstances surounding the play.

So, no matter which sanctioning body this was, they should have guidelines that say one umpire or the other has this call. What you don't want is for neither umpire to make a call or, even worse, for both of them to make opposite calls!

Yes, on a questionable play, the umpire responsible for the call should quickly signal either a catch or no catch to head off any confusion.

 

[jbe_17]

Yes, on a questionable play, the umpire responsible for the call should quickly signal either a catch or no catch to head off any confusion.

That's what I thought. I was kind of on the other teams side because when you looked at the field ump, he was looking the other direction and when you looked at the home plate ump, he looked as confused as the rest of us. Here is what we got out of the umps after the play.

Field Ump: "I didn't see it, it's not my call, it's my responsibility to see if the runner tags"

Plate Ump: "I didn't make an out call so you should have known he didn't catch it"

First of all how could the umpire closest to the play not be making that call? Second if the runner is already rounding second, why not look to see if he catches it, its not like he is going to tag up from there.

Second, I have a feeling the home plate ump didn't make a call because he had no clue. At least give everyone an out or safe call, and not a "what the heck just happened" look.

 

[laswellracin]

The field umpire is suppose to rule on the tag and the plate umpire rules on the catch, in that situation.

The umpire should have given an audible call but is not required. He/She is only required to give the "out" hand signal. If he did not give this signal, it is ruled as a live ball that was not caught. Kind of like a foul ball, on a fair ball, nothing is said (only hand movements).

At least, that is my experience.

 

[KenD17]

Am I the only one that thinks the wrong guy was called out? The batter-runner should have been called out for passing the runner who started at first base.

Rule 8. Section 7; D.

When a runner physically passes a preceding runner before that runner has
been called out. If this was the third out of the inning, any runs scored prior
to the out for passing a preceding runner count.
EFFECT: The ball is live. The runner who passes the preceding runner is
out.

 

[NCASAUmp]

The field umpire is suppose to rule on the tag and the plate umpire rules on the catch, in that situation.

Again, it depends on the association. ASA has very specific assignments based on the location(s) of the runners. It's not uncommon for the plate umpire to have both catch AND tag-up responsibilities.

The umpire should have given an audible call but is not required. He/She is only required to give the "out" hand signal. If he did not give this signal, it is ruled as a live ball that was not caught. Kind of like a foul ball, on a fair ball, nothing is said (only hand movements).

At least, that is my experience.

Outs should ALWAYS be verbalized. Always, always, always.

A call of "no catch" is NEVER verbalized, it is only signaled.

 

[NCASAUmp]

Am I the only one that thinks the wrong guy was called out? The batter-runner should have been called out for passing the runner who started at first base.

Rule 8. Section 7; D.

When a runner physically passes a preceding runner before that runner has
been called out. If this was the third out of the inning, any runs scored prior
to the out for passing a preceding runner count.
EFFECT: The ball is live. The runner who passes the preceding runner is
out.

You would be correct. I just hadn't gotten to that point yet.

 

[BretMan]

I don't know if USSSA even publishes an umpire manual. But in their rule book, under Rule 10 (Umpires), they say that the plate umpire has the catch/no catch call in the outfield UNLESS the base umpire goes out to make the call. Doesn't sound like the base umpire went to the outfield on this one.

I did say that an umpire "should" signal the catch or the no catch to avoid confusion. But if he does not, the "default" is a player isn't out until the umpire call him out. The fact that the umpire didn't signal anything doesn't change the rule or the ruling. It just makes things go a lot more smoothly for everybody involved. So I guess you can't say that the umpire MUST signal a "no catch". You can say that he SHOULD signal it- just to avoid confusing situations like this. Doing so will help to head off any problems before they even happen.

 

[jbe_17]

Am I the only one that thinks the wrong guy was called out? The batter-runner should have been called out for passing the runner who started at first base.

Rule 8. Section 7; D.

When a runner physically passes a preceding runner before that runner has
been called out. If this was the third out of the inning, any runs scored prior
to the out for passing a preceding runner count.
EFFECT: The ball is live. The runner who passes the preceding runner is
out.

I didn't even think about that, there was so much confusion going on.. To be honest, I am not 100% sure that he didn't call the other guy out. All I remember other than the whole catch vs non catch is that they called one of the runners out, I'm pretty sure it was the guy on 1B, but can't remember.

 

[BretMan]

Am I the only one that thinks the wrong guy was called out?

No, you're not. Whenever a runner passes another runner it is ALWAYS the trailing runner who is called out.

 

[eddieq]

No, you're not. Whenever a runner passes another runner it is ALWAYS the trailing runner who is called out.

And "trailing" means "guy who did the passing who is now ahead of the other runner" not "guy who got passed and is now behind the trailing runner"

Just because we don't make things complicated enough