Other Force Out or Not

T

TexasTransplant

Addicted to Softballfans
The following was posted on the SSUSA board. I question the conclusion of both the poster and the umpire involved. It was my understanding that once the batter/runner had passed the first base he was assumed to have touched it and safe/out would be subject to appeal, in which case this would become a timing play and the runs would count.

Can some knowledgeable ump chime in here?

FROM SSUSA BOARD

Strangest play I have ever seen

This past weekend this happened and after I dug deeper the umpire was correct

Bases loaded with 1 out battter hits it in the gap ruuner on third scores then runner on 2 nd scores runner on firts gets thrown out between third and home. mean while the batter runner is standing on third. The defense appeals the runner on third missed first and was called out. Umpire rule that no runs counted because the third out of the inning was a force out at first was the 3rd ouit and no runs counted. I was totally confused and looked it up and that was the correct ruling.

Kudos to that umpire for knowing that one
 
eddieq

eddieq

The Great and Powerful Q
Correct ruling. Yes, he's assumed to have touched it unless properly appealed. But once appealed, he became the third out of the inning. Since it was an out on the batter-runner at first, no runs can score.

NCASAUmp posted the SSUSA ruling. ASA rule supplement 43 specifically addresses that situation (where an appeal on a missed base on a force results in no runs scoring).
 
T

TexasTransplant

Addicted to Softballfans
Guess I understood incorrectly. Thanks for the quick responses. I was hoping to hear from the two of you because you always seem to have knowledgeable answers.
 
BretMan

BretMan

Addicted to Softballfans
Correct call made, but technically incorrect reason given in the OP.

You can't have a force out at first base, at least not as it is defined in the rule book. A force out is when a runner is forced to advance by the batter becoming a batter-runner. A runner is a player who is already occupying first, second or third base.

The player running to first base here is not a runner, not by the rule book definition. He is a batter-runner and as such the definition of a "force play" does not apply to him.

There's a separate rule that covers batter-runners not safely attaining first base. It's right next to the rule about runs not scoring if the third out is a force out.

It's a separate rule because it covers all of the other ways a batter-runner might make an out before reaching first, such as on a caught fly ball or by committing an act of interference.

In layman's terms, if you say that the batter-runner was "forced" at first base, everybody will probably know what you're talking about. It walks like a duck and it talks like a duck...but it's not really a force out and it's covered by a separate rule.
 
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EAJuggalo

EAJuggalo

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redneck1991 said:
How does a person miss first?
Click to expand...

I see it five or six times a night. Very few slow pitch umps watch for it and even fewer F3s watch watch for it. They think they got a double and step right over the corner of the bag. I know at least five players that never touch first base on a hit to the outfield.
 
I

irishmafia

Addicted to Softballfans
EAJuggalo said:
I see it five or six times a night. Very few slow pitch umps watch for it and even fewer F3s watch watch for it. They think they got a double and step right over the corner of the bag. I know at least five players that never touch first base on a hit to the outfield.
Click to expand...

I disagree. A real umpire, no matter what the game, ALWAYS watch for this, assuming priorities don't take their attention elsewhere.

Yes, you will have some anal putzes that teach nothing, but "watch the ball". Really? Why do I need to watch a ball rolling in the outfield when there are so many other parts of the game for which I am responsible?

BTW, an intelligent team will have someone on the bench who has the responsibility of watching what the umpire watches. I played on a team for years that usually got at least an out a game on missed base appeals. One game we had a two-out, game winning, open field grand slam negated because Mr. Superstar didn't think it was important to touch 1B. Boy, did he go off when the umpire called him out and took the runs off the board. I don't know who he was more pissed at, us for having the audacity to request the appeal or the umpire for making the correct call. His 1b coach told him to STFU and get his equipment, he finally got caught! Funny, he didn't stick around for post-game adult beverages with the rest of us :)
 
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