ASA Missing first base question.

[oldsoftballer]

I tried searching but didn't find a definitive answer, so here goes...
This is an ASA game.
Bases loaded, two outs... batter hits triple and slides into third. Guy in dugout yells that batter missed first, so they throw ball to pitcher who walks over and tags first. (I don't know whether ump called "time" or not) Ump conference ensues. Umps rule he is out and no runs score.

I thought runs would count, but am just trying to find out?

 

[OG_\FlyingPigs]

Runs dont count being that he was the 3rd out.

 

[NCASAUmp]

Umpires were correct.

ASA 5-5-B: No run shall be scored if the third out of the inning is the result of:
1. A batter-runner being called out prior to reaching first base or any other runner forced out due to the batter becoming a batter-runner.

Since the batter did not safely reach first base and the defense properly appealed, no runs may score. Whether or not the umpires called time makes no difference. It's clear the pitcher was appealing first base.

 

[oldsoftballer]

Thanks guys.
Looks like umps were right and I was wrong again

 

[JoeG3]

If I'm appealing something like that, do I actually have to bring the ball over to 1B or can I just state "I'm appealing the batter touching 1B/Did he touch 1st?"

Wondered this on runners advancing from tags as well. Sometimes I just ask and the ump says 'safe' with no discussion, which I take to mean he didn't see anything. Other times he will stare at me akwardly for a few seconds not making any call, and when the base gets tagged he will call the runner out. This situation reminds me of a close play at home where you look at the ump and he is just standing there, not making any calls. Everyone pauses for a second, realizes what that means, and then all dive for the plate.

 

[BretMan]

This applies to ASA rules- other associations may have different appeal procedures.

An appeal can be made either during a live ball or a dead ball.

If the ball is live: The appeal may be made by any fielder who has possession of the ball by touching the base left too soon on a caught fly ball or the base missed, or by tagging the runner who committed the violation (if they are still on the playing field).

If the ball is dead: The appeal may be made by any infielder with or without the ball by simply making a verbal appeal to the umpire. On a dead ball appeal, there's no need to have the pitcher first get on the pitcher's plate, or wait until the ball is made live again, or throw to a base, or touch a base.

It is usually to your advantage to make a dead ball appeal if the runners have stopped advancing. Either request time- and wait until it is granted- or wait until the umpire calls time once the play is ended, then make the dead ball appeal. This eliminates the possibility of runners advancing while the appeal is being made, or even having a throw go out of play as you throw to a base, thus giving the runners extra bases on any base award. Of course, if the ball is still live and the runner is scrambling back to a base as the continuation of the play, you will need to make a live ball appeal before the runner gets back.

Most players- and, unfortunately, some umpires- don't understand the proper appeal process and that's when you get the yells to "give it to the pitcher, then throw it to the base!" which is all totally unecessary for a dead ball appeal.

On the other play you mention- the close play at the plate- if the runner misses the plate and the catcher misses the tag, the correct procedure is for the umpire to signal "safe". And the runner is safe- up until the point that he is properly appealed. "Doing nothing" tips off the defense that the base was missed and that gives them an unintended advatage in recognizing that an appeal is available to them. You want the defense to recognize the missed base on their own- without any unintended help from the umpire.

 

[JoeG3]

This applies to ASA rules- other associations may have different appeal procedures.

An appeal can be made either during a live ball or a dead ball.

If the ball is live: The appeal may be made by any fielder who has possession of the ball by touching the base left too soon on a caught fly ball or the base missed, or by tagging the runner who committed the violation (if they are still on the playing field).

If the ball is dead: The appeal may be made by any infielder with or without the ball by simply making a verbal appeal to the umpire. On a dead ball appeal, there's no need to have the pitcher first get on the pitcher's plate, or wait until the ball is made live again, or throw to a base, or touch a base.

It is usually to your advantage to make a dead ball appeal if the runners have stopped advancing. Either request time- and wait until it is granted- or wait until the umpire calls time once the play is ended, then make the dead ball appeal. This eliminates the possibility of runners advancing while the appeal is being made, or even having a throw go out of play as you throw to a base, thus giving the runners extra bases on any base award. Of course, if the ball is still live and the runner is scrambling back to a base as the continuation of the play, you will need to make a live ball appeal before the runner gets back.

Most players- and, unfortunately, some umpires- don't understand the proper appeal process and that's when you get the yells to "give it to the pitcher, then throw it to the base!" which is all totally unecessary for a dead ball appeal.

On the other play you mention- the close play at the plate- if the runner misses the plate and the catcher misses the tag, the correct procedure is for the umpire to signal "safe". And the runner is safe- up until the point that he is properly appealed. "Doing nothing" tips off the defense that the base was missed and that gives them an unintended advatage in recognizing that an appeal is available to them. You want the defense to recognize the missed base on their own- without any unintended help from the umpire.

Excellent. Thanks.

 

[synergy40]

appealed third outs, runs never score.

 

[BretMan]

appealed third outs, runs never score.

Not really true. It depends on what is being appealed, which runner is being appealed and the timing of the appeal. There are plays when the run would count and plays where it would not.

 

[synergy40]

Not really true. It depends on what is being appealed, which runner is being appealed and the timing of the appeal. There are plays when the run would count and plays where it would not.

didnt really specify but i was talking about op's situation (where runner misses first).

 

[MDUmp]

appealed third outs, runs never score.

Runners on 2nd and 3rd, 1 out. Fly ball to RF. The RF catches the ball for out number 2, but both runners advanced on the play. The defense appeals the runner on 2nd left early and the umpire agrees for out number 3. The runner that was on 3rd tagged up correctly before advancing and crossed home before a proper appeal was made. Does the run score?

 

[NCASAUmp]

Runners on 2nd and 3rd, 1 out. Fly ball to RF. The RF catches the ball for out number 2, but both runners advanced on the play. The defense appeals the runner on 2nd left early and the umpire agrees for out number 3. The runner that was on 3rd tagged up correctly before advancing and crossed home before a proper appeal was made. Does the run score?

Ooooh! Ooooh! I know this one, teach! Pick me! Pick me! My hand's up, teach!

 

[synergy40]

Runners on 2nd and 3rd, 1 out. Fly ball to RF. The RF catches the ball for out number 2, but both runners advanced on the play. The defense appeals the runner on 2nd left early and the umpire agrees for out number 3. The runner that was on 3rd tagged up correctly before advancing and crossed home before a proper appeal was made. Does the run score?

run scores, no force, read post above yours please.

 

[NCASAUmp]

Runners on 2nd and 3rd, 1 out. Fly ball to RF. The RF catches the ball for out number 2, but both runners advanced on the play. The defense appeals the runner on 2nd left early and the umpire agrees for out number 3. The runner that was on 3rd tagged up correctly before advancing and crossed home before a proper appeal was made. Does the run score?

Now what if bases had been loaded and, by some miracle, all runners make it home? Who scores?

 

[irishmafia]

Ooooh! Ooooh! I know this one, teach! Pick me! Pick me! My hand's up, teach!

Easy there Arnold

 

[TEX1959]

Now what if bases had been loaded and, by some miracle, all runners make it home? Who scores?

the runners on third and first.
being as both crossed the plate before the third out was appealed and granted.

 

[BretMan]

Guess again!

 

[Gulf Coast Blue]

This applies to ASA rules- other associations may have different appeal procedures.

An appeal can be made either during a live ball or a dead ball.

If the ball is live: The appeal may be made by any fielder who has possession of the ball by touching the base left too soon on a caught fly ball or the base missed, or by tagging the runner who committed the violation (if they are still on the playing field).

If the ball is dead: The appeal may be made by any infielder with or without the ball by simply making a verbal appeal to the umpire. On a dead ball appeal, there's no need to have the pitcher first get on the pitcher's plate, or wait until the ball is made live again, or throw to a base, or touch a base.

It is usually to your advantage to make a dead ball appeal if the runners have stopped advancing. Either request time- and wait until it is granted- or wait until the umpire calls time once the play is ended, then make the dead ball appeal. This eliminates the possibility of runners advancing while the appeal is being made, or even having a throw go out of play as you throw to a base, thus giving the runners extra bases on any base award. Of course, if the ball is still live and the runner is scrambling back to a base as the continuation of the play, you will need to make a live ball appeal before the runner gets back.

Most players- and, unfortunately, some umpires- don't understand the proper appeal process and that's when you get the yells to "give it to the pitcher, then throw it to the base!" which is all totally unecessary for a dead ball appeal.

On the other play you mention- the close play at the plate- if the runner misses the plate and the catcher misses the tag, the correct procedure is for the umpire to signal "safe". And the runner is safe- up until the point that he is properly appealed. "Doing nothing" tips off the defense that the base was missed and that gives them an unintended advatage in recognizing that an appeal is available to them. You want the defense to recognize the missed base on their own- without any unintended help from the umpire.

See this ^^^^^

Jpe;

 

[TEX1959]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp
Now what if bases had been loaded and, by some miracle, all runners make it home? Who scores?

the runners on third and first.
being as both crossed the plate before the third out was appealed and granted.

ok being as you said guess again, here goes
only the runner on third, being as the runner on second was appealed and called out, therefore any runners behind him would not be allowed to score.

 

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp
Now what if bases had been loaded and, by some miracle, all runners make it home? Who scores?




ok being as you said guess again, here goes
only the runner on third, being as the runner on second was appealed and called out, therefore any runners behind him would not be allowed to score.

Nope.

Answer: none.

No runs may score, as the batter-runner was called out prior to reaching first base.

It'd be the same as if he'd grounded to the first baseman, who then tagged first base.

 

[Fin09]

I think we're getting the two (or three?) plays mixed up here- in the scenario with the bases loaded and one out, fly ball caught for 2nd out, all three runners score, defense appeals runner left 2nd early, umpire calls him out, runner from 3rd is the only one who should score, correct? No one behind the 3rd out should score.
Or am I mixing them up and misreading them?

 

[NCASAUmp]

I think we're getting the two (or three?) plays mixed up here- in the scenario with the bases loaded and one out, fly ball caught for 2nd out, all three runners score, defense appeals runner left 2nd early, umpire calls him out, runner from 3rd is the only one who should score, correct? No one behind the 3rd out should score.
Or am I mixing them up and misreading them?

Hell if I know at this point. I believe I was responding to TEX1959's assertion that if bases are loaded and the defense successfully appeals the batter-runner missing first, no runs will score if it's the 3rd out.

 

[BretMan]

Runners on 2nd and 3rd, 1 out. Fly ball to RF. The RF catches the ball for out number 2, but both runners advanced on the play. The defense appeals the runner on 2nd left early and the umpire agrees for out number 3. The runner that was on 3rd tagged up correctly before advancing and crossed home before a proper appeal was made. Does the run score?

Ooooh! Ooooh! I know this one, teach! Pick me! Pick me! My hand's up, teach!

run scores, no force, read post above yours please.

Now what if bases had been loaded and, by some miracle, all runners make it home? Who scores?

the runners on third and first. being as both crossed the plate before the third out was appealed and granted.

Guess again!

ok being as you said guess again, here goes only the runner on third, being as the runner on second was appealed and called out, therefore any runners behind him would not be allowed to score.

This is the conversation that I thought I was following...even if there was a two week gap in the middle of it!

 

[joncon]

I think we're getting the two (or three?) plays mixed up here

That's what happened.



Now....in the OP's situation, what if the runner missed second instead of first. Do the runs ahead of him score ?

 

[NCASAUmp]

That's what happened.



Now....in the OP's situation, what if the runner missed second instead of first. Do the runs ahead of him score ?

Let's recap the situation...
"Bases loaded, two outs... batter hits triple and slides into third."

Are you saying that the runner who started on 1st base missed 2nd? Or that the batter missed 2nd?

If you're asking about the runner who started on 1st base, then again, no runs will score.

If it was the batter who missed 2nd, then all other runners will score.

 

[TEX1959]

i think we need to start another thread.........or threads.........changing boats in the middle of the stream.
someone usually falls in.

 

[joncon]

If it was the batter who missed 2nd, then all other runners will score.

Yeah, this. I shoulda said batter/runner.

That's what I thought, just checking.