Other MLB - End of WS Game 3

[thesteve]

I have no dog in this fight, but I thought it was interesting to see the game end on a judgment call. Thoughts from the resident umps?

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/index.jsp?gid=2013_10_26_bosmlb_slnmlb_1&mode=video

 

[beernbombs]

As per MLB rules. Correct call. Fielder was no longer in the act of fielding a ball.

I am a fairly new umpire, so I do have this question for more experienced umps. In our game, softball, does fielding a thrown ball have the same protections as fielding a batted ball. Not this play particularly, I think this is obviously obstruction.

 

[SevenBizzos]

That's obstruction. Not the most obvious form, but qualifies. Joyce signaled it as soon as it happened.

 

[jsam21238]

As per MLB rules. Correct call. Fielder was no longer in the act of fielding a ball.

I am a fairly new umpire, so I do have this question for more experienced umps. In our game, softball, does fielding a thrown ball have the same protections as fielding a batted ball. Not this play particularly, I think this is obviously obstruction.

No... it doesn't.

 

[Pheonix51]

I am most definitely half and half on this one.

Yes given the circumstances by the written it was obstruction.

Could there be a case for Craig "looking for it"? Middlebrooks is a decent distance inside the line at the time = could have been avoided by running the actual baseline.

Meh. Right call by the rules.

 

[jsam21238]

I am most definitely half and half on this one.

Yes given the circumstances by the written it was obstruction.

Could there be a case for Craig "looking for it"? Middlebrooks is a decent distance inside the line at the time = could have been avoided by running the actual baseline.

Meh. Right call by the rules.

Look up the definition of basepath...

 

[irishmafia]

Look up the definition of basepath...

But he didn't say base path. He said base line which anyone who has even the most limited knowledge of the game should know that runners are not required to stay within the area of the base line.

But it doesn't make any difference. People who "think" they know what the rule is often do not simply because they have been playing the game for x number of years. Longevity, even for umpires, only means you been doing it a long time, not necessarily doing it right.

 

[Pheonix51]

This is getting funny already...

I know exactly what a basepath is and exactly what a base line is.

My comment was based in if Craig had made sure the call stuck. Not anything else and definitely not about knowing the rules.

But thanks for the advice...:biggthumpup:

 

[NCASAUmp]

As per MLB rules. Correct call. Fielder was no longer in the act of fielding a ball.

I am a fairly new umpire, so I do have this question for more experienced umps. In our game, softball, does fielding a thrown ball have the same protections as fielding a batted ball. Not this play particularly, I think this is obviously obstruction.

If this had been softball, it would have been obstruction under every association I'm aware of.

USSSA does still have the exception from obstruction where the fielder is in the act of taking the proper position to receive a thrown ball, but in this case, the ball was clearly past the fielder.

This is obstruction every time, period. Good call by the crew.

Anyone else notice that Jim Joyce was the plate umpire?

 

[clementeunknown]

Middlebrooks had no business being on the ground. If the throw was off he should have gotten in front instead of diving for it. But that was a bad judgement call on his part. Keyword JUDGEMENT

 

[BretMan]

Anyone else notice that Jim Joyce was the plate umpire?

Joyce was the 3B umpire and he properly signaled the obstruction the instant it happened. HP umpire was Dana DeMuth (same umpire who made the "phantom drop on the transfer" call at second base in game one).

 

[Fro Joe]

My comment was based in if Craig had made sure the call stuck.

I doubt it. He was still on the inside of the bag due to his slide. When he popped up and turned around to look for the ball he was even further inside the bag. It certainly doesn't look like Craig was trying to run into Middlebrooks.

 

[stork]

If Craig clears Middlebrooks, he walks home. Not literally of course.

 

[Fro Joe]

If Craig clears Middlebrooks, he walks home. Not literally of course.

That's the other part of the call. They felt like he would have scored which looks likely with the close play at home plate. Either way it's a sucky way to end a WS game, but the right call.

 

[stork]

Take the out and focus on getting the last batter. Granted Craig is slow, but you could see when Salty went to throw the ball that Craig was about there. The risk way outweighed the reward. I think I yelled NO when he went to throw. Can't quite be sure but I know I thought it.

 

[scrub]

As a RS fan it looked obvious in real time that Middlebrooks did the unintentional intentional trip, either way it happened and it was on him. Only problem is that it worked. I agree Craig would have scored easily if he doesn't get tripped up. I'll also say that if that ball doesn't hit his arm and deflect way into foul territory and he still runs, Nava has him thrown out by a mile. Salty is an idiot. Rec league softball mistake, little league mistake even, how do you make that throw tie game bottom nine? It's baseball not softball you take the odds with two outs that you're going to get the next guy out. Top 9 is a different story but wow that was dumb.

 

[joncon]

The fielder clearly lifted his legs up to slow down the runner. You can't get away with that at this level. WAY to many cameras.

If he just laid there, he may not have gotten the call.

Busted. Good call ump.

 

[stork]

WS game on the line…yeah, he should have just laid there.
Not going to get up quick with your legs flat. Maybe it was intentional, maybe not. Just the crazy heart-breaking thing that happens like the Sox of old.

 

[irishmafia]

WS game on the line…yeah, he should have just laid there.
Not going to get up quick with your legs flat. Maybe it was intentional, maybe not. Just the crazy heart-breaking thing that happens like the Sox of old.

Just how ****ing dense does everyone have to be to even be discussing this.

The fielder's legs are irrelevant, the award is the NEXT base (by MLB rules), any attempt to justify a "no call" is absurd and intent have absolutely ZIP to do with the rule, the call or it's application.

IT WAS OBS and the appropriate award for MLB.

 

[stork]

I am pretty dense but you are reading what you want to read there. Carry on.

 

[Illegal pitcher]

Just how ****ing dense does everyone have to be to even be discussing this.

The fielder's legs are irrelevant, the award is the NEXT base (by MLB rules),

Jim Joyce didn't think the legs were irrelevant.
Question: "Jim, could you walk us through what happened?"
Jim Joyce: "When he [Craig] tried to advance to home plate, the feet were up in the air and he tripped over Middlebrooks and I instinctively called 'obstruction'".

 

[stork]

God Breslow is struggling when we need him most.

 

[stork]

Lackey better just be getting some practice. WTF who they bring him in? Making Cards think they might bring him in?

 

[ilyk2win]

I still don't understand how the runner never physically touched home plate but ended the game safely. Every other situation you have to physically touch the base awarded.

Weird scenario all the way around but the ball had no business being thrown to 3rd in the first place, although it wasn't that bad of a throw and any Major League player should have been able to at least knock it down if not catch it cleanly, especially given the stakes.

 

[NCASAUmp]

I still don't understand how the runner never physically touched home plate but ended the game safely. Every other situation you have to physically touch the base awarded.

Weird scenario all the way around but the ball had no business being thrown to 3rd in the first place, although it wasn't that bad of a throw and any Major League player should have been able to at least knock it down if not catch it cleanly, especially given the stakes.

He did miss it on the initial slide. However, the camera cuts away from the overhead angle before we can see for certain whether he actually touches home plate when he gets up. As long as he eventually touches home plate, the run is counted.

And even if he didn't ever touch it, the defense must still make the proper appeal.

 

[ilyk2win]

He did miss it on the initial slide. However, the camera cuts away from the overhead angle before we can see for certain whether he actually touches home plate when he gets up. As long as he eventually touches home plate, the run is counted.

And even if he didn't ever touch it, the defense must still make the proper appeal.

I had another "veteran" umpire tell me he didn't have to actually touch due to being "awarded" home. That simply doesn't register as being logical to me based on general baseball rules.

I watched that play multiple times and while they do cut away, you see him laying there beyond home plate, thinks about getting up but then drops back to the ground and while he is on the ground, his feet are beyond the plate and not touching it as he squirmed around. Next you see him being carried/assited off the field, continued in the direction he was facing....away from HP.

So I guess he "could" have gotten up and ritualistically touched the plate, but it does not appear that is the case.

 

[irishmafia]

Jim Joyce didn't think the legs were irrelevant.
Question: "Jim, could you walk us through what happened?"
Jim Joyce: "When he [Craig] tried to advance to home plate, the feet were up in the air and he tripped over Middlebrooks and I instinctively called 'obstruction'".

Really, many MLB umpires couldn't pass a simple softball rules test even with an allowance for MLB differences. This is why they have a crew chief.

Then you stick a microphone in someone's face asking the same stupid question 20 times and expect a different answer. Unfortunately, some people feel compelled to provide unnecessary justification to a call.

As a softball player you probably see this a couple times a month, and often to justify a bad call, so why do you think it is different at this level? As is routinely pointed out, these guys are human like everyone else. Like in all sports, the official is the best available, not necessarily the best there is.

Remember when Rich Garcia kicked a spectator interference call in the 1996 ACLS? They stuck a microphone in his face and beat him up. He eventually offered, "yeah, maybe I should have just awarded him a double". WHAT!?!? The call should have been OUT, not cut the HR call in half. We didn't hear much from Mr. Garcia (who was a very good umpire) after that.

Some people just feel if they tell the press something, it will satisfy the morons and they will just go away. Amazing how that doesn't work yet people continue to do it.

All that aside, the legs are irrelevant to the rule. Again, just something people are pointing to as a "justification", but in reality, it has nothing to do with the rule.

 

[vipvanilla]

All that aside, the legs are irrelevant to the rule. Again, just something people are pointing to as a "justification", but in reality, it has nothing to do with the rule.

While the legs are irrelevant to the rule, for me, I think it made the obstruction more obvious, especially to all of us non-umpires. I do wonder what would have happened had the 3B laid completely flat. Sure it's all speculation and who knows how the runner would have reacted had he turned around and simply had to jump over a pair of legs laying on the ground. Hard to know. I hate the BoSox, so I'm saying he did it on purpose because that would seem to fit with the rest of the piss poor attitudes by their players (I may be a little pissed still about my Tigers playing so poorly).

 

[FatBoy28]

On one of those angles it almost looks like Craig doesnt trip on Middlebrooks but trips on his own feet and just falls on Middlebrooks. If Craig is a step further away and its more obvious that he trips on himself do you think he still gets obstruction because he fell on the fielder instead of just falling on the field?

And what about the fact that practically the entire Cardinals team is on the field while the play is still ongoing?

 

[FatBoy28]

While the legs are irrelevant to the rule, for me, I think it made the obstruction more obvious, especially to all of us non-umpires.

It can't make an infraction more obvious if its irrelevant to the rule. It sure attracts attention though and it probably makes it a lot likelier that the call is made.