ASA Orange Bag at first

D

dj55921

Manager
Scenario is runner on third with two outs

Batter hits it to shortstop, batter beats the throw and run scores. However the play is appealed and the batter is called out for going to the white first base bag instead of the orange on a play at first base. My question is does the run score? Is it still a force out because the runner never legally reached first? Or does it become an appeal play where the run scores? I would think it would be a force like when a runner misses a bag when they round it. Thoughts?
 
ichiromoco

ichiromoco

Addicted to Softballfans
dj55921 said:
Scenario is runner on third with two outs

Batter hits it to shortstop, batter beats the throw and run scores. However the play is appealed and the batter is called out for going to the white first base bag instead of the orange on a play at first base. My question is does the run score? Is it still a force out because the runner never legally reached first? Or does it become an appeal play where the run scores? I would think it would be a force like when a runner misses a bag when they round it. Thoughts?
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My understanding is that is not an appeal play. That should have been called by the umpire as a dead ball out from the get go and the run would not count.The orange bag is not a seperate bag so if umpire is enforcing safety rule than it would be dead ball out.

Why he allowed it to happen as an appeal seems confusing to me.
 
rhound50

rhound50

Rec Coed Superstar
This is an appeal play but the batter is effectively ruled out for missing 1st base and no run can ever score if the runner does not safely reach 1st base.
 
NCASAUmp

NCASAUmp

Un-Retired
ichiromoco said:
My understanding is that is not an appeal play. That should have been called by the umpire as a dead ball out from the get go and the run would not count.The orange bag is not a seperate bag so if umpire is enforcing safety rule than it would be dead ball out.

Why he allowed it to happen as an appeal seems confusing to me.
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Actually, this is an appeal play, since the batter-runner is required to touch the colored portion of the double base. If the batter-runner completely misses the colored portion of the double base, then he's subject to appeal until he returns to the base.

If the defense successfully appeals the missed base, then the run does not score, as the batter-runner was retired prior to reaching first base.
 
Gulf Coast Blue

Gulf Coast Blue

Addicted to Softballfans
NCASAUmp said:
Actually, this is an appeal play, since the batter-runner is required to touch the colored portion of the double base. If the batter-runner completely misses the colored portion of the double base, then he's subject to appeal until he returns to the base.

If the defense successfully appeals the missed base, then the run does not score, as the batter-runner was retired prior to reaching first base.
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But only if the defense appeals before the runner returns........
 
rhound50

rhound50

Rec Coed Superstar
Gulf Coast Blue said:
But only if the defense appeals before the runner returns........
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So say you have a runner on 3rd and 2 outs. Ground ball that the runner beats to first but he touches the white base, the throw from the infielder is caught with the fielders foot on the base, is that considered a legal live ball appeal and the run would not score?
 
Gulf Coast Blue

Gulf Coast Blue

Addicted to Softballfans
The fielder would have to state his intent of the appeal prior to the runner returning. If so, than yes......the run would not score.

The runner is assumed to have touched a base once they pass it.....but are still in jeopardy of being called out on appeal.

In the late 80's and even into about 2001 or so.......I don't remember the exact years.......in both Baseball and Softball (In High School Only)......Appeals for missing a base, or a base left too soon were automatic.

If the umpire saw the infraction.....they were to rule on it as soon as all action stopped.

It was a rule that was put into place by coaches and it took a few years.....but they did see the fallacy of their actions.

It gave a HUGE advantage to the defense.....

There are still some umpires today that think it is a rule even though it has been over 10 years since it has been in the books.
 
USA All the wAy

USA All the wAy

Manager
The fielder would have to state his intent of the appeal prior to the runner returning. If so, than yes......the run would not score.
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Lets discuss this one. Never heard of a Live ball appeal that needed a verbal confirmation/clarification.

I would think a tag would be needed here?
 
Gulf Coast Blue

Gulf Coast Blue

Addicted to Softballfans
You have to know what the defense is appealing. I needs to be unmistakable......when a fielder throws a ball to a base left too soon, everyone on the field and in the stadium knows what that means.....but simply touching a base that a runner may have missed is not enough. That is why in dead ball appeals, the defense must state what they are appealing.

For instance.....bases juices with two outs, and batter hits an inside the park homerun. F5 notices that the runner from 2nd missed third on his way to score. After all action has stopped, F5 tells the umpire he is appealing a runner missing the base. As the umpire......I need to know which runner to give a proper ruling. It also keeps teams from "fishing" for outs.
 
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pob14

Addicted to Softballfans
I can't remember when, or even if it was baseball, softball, or both, but the Federation (high school rules) used to have "accidental appeals;" if the fielder happened to step on a base while holding the ball, the umpire was to consider that an appeal if a runner had missed that base. That's what the "unmistakable" part of the rule is designed to prevent.
 
cpl40475

cpl40475

Coach
Just curious, did the throw pull the first baseman off the bag to one side or the other causing the runner to have to use the white part of the bag?
 
T

TexasTransplant

Addicted to Softballfans
So if the batter/runner strode over 1B without touching it and ,let's say, his foot just touches the ground as the throw to 1B is received, that would not automatically be an out and would have to be appealed by the defense?
 
Gulf Coast Blue

Gulf Coast Blue

Addicted to Softballfans
That is correct......a runner is assumed to have touched the base once they have passed it. After that an appeal is necessary.
 
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