ASA out or not

[stangnut]

ground ball, infielder thow's ball in the dirt it bounces up and the 1B pins the ball to his chest with the back of his glove before the batter runner touchs the bag. safe or out?

 

[RDD15]

From the way that you describe it, safe. You have to have the ball in the hand/glove, not pinned to the chest with the back of said hand/glove.

 

[BretMan]

For it to be a vaild tag of the base, the fielder must be holding the ball "securely and firmly" (to quote the rule book) in either the hand or the glove.

Pinned up agaist the body doesn't cut it. That's not to say that a fielder might eventually gain "secure and firm" possession after pinning/trapping the ball. But if that possession comes after the runner has already touched the bag, he's safe.

 

[Gulf Coast Blue]

ground ball, infielder thow's ball in the dirt it bounces up and the 1B pins the ball to his chest with the back of his glove before the batter runner touchs the bag. safe or out?

Pinned against the body is not firmly held in the hand or glove........

Safe

Joel

 

[Duriisimo]

The rules do not say anything about the ball having to be "secured in the hand or glove" it just says secured so out.

^^^^^^^^Hahahahahahahaha^^^^^^Noooooooob!

 

[goro25]

For it to be a vaild tag of the base, the fielder must be holding the ball "securely and firmly" (to quote the rule book) in either the hand or the glove.

Pinned up agaist the body doesn't cut it. That's not to say that a fielder might eventually gain "secure and firm" possession after pinning/trapping the ball. But if that possession comes after the runner has already touched the bag, he's safe.

Do you know where this rule is? So far all I found was this...Still looking for the rule you quoted.

Rule 8, Section 7. The Runner is out
C. When, on a force play, a fielder contacts the base while holding the ball, or tags the runner before the runner reaches the base. If the forced runner, after touching the next base, retreats for any reason towards the base first occupied, the force play is reinstated and the runner may again be put out if the defense tags the runner or the base to which the runner is forced.

Here, it doesn't say that the ball has to be in the hand or glove.

Dictionary.com - Hold - Grasp, carry, or support with one's arms or hands

 

[goro25]

I think I found what you're talking about in rule 1, definition of a catch.

CATCH/NO CATCH:
A. A catch is a legally caught ball, which occurs when the fielder catches a
batted, pitched or thrown ball with the hand(s) or glove/mitt.
1. To establish a valid catch, the fielder shall hold the ball long enough to
prove control of it and/or that the release of the ball is voluntary.
2. If the ball is merely held in the fielder’s arm(s) or prevented from dropping
to the ground by some part of the fielder’s body, equipment or clothing,
the catch is not completed until the ball is in the grasp of the fielder’s
hand(s) or glove.
3. The fielder’s feet must be within the field of play, touching the “out of
play” line or in the air after leaving live ball territory in order to have a
valid catch. A player who is “out of play” and returns must have both
feet touching live ball territory or one foot touching and the other in the
air, for the catch to be legal.
B. It is not a catch:
1. If a fielder, while gaining control, collides with another player, umpire
or a fence, or falls to the ground and drops the ball as a result of the
collision or falling to the ground.
2. If a ball strikes anything other than a defensive player while it is in flight
is the same as if it struck the ground.
3. When a fielder catches a batted or thrown ball with anything other than
the hand(s) or glove in its proper place.

Looks to me like the rule needs clarification, unless there is somewhere else that states the ball must be securely held in the hand or glove for a force out. A catch isn't a mandatory part of a force out.

 

[irishmafia]

The rules do not say anything about the ball having to be "secured in the hand or glove" it just says secured so out.

This is absolutely incorrect.

 

[irishmafia]

What a bunch of ****ing idiots. This is a perfect example of why rule books shouldn't be on-line. Most people aren't smart enough or don't care to learn the proper way to interpret it.

 

[EsqUmp]

What a bunch of ****ing idiots. This is a perfect example of why rule books shouldn't be on-line. Most people aren't smart enough or don't care to learn the proper way to interpret it.

Easy Irish. We have some new and "non-regular" people on this forum post.

You're jumping to the f-bomb a bit to quickly.

If you scare them off, then they'll lose the desire to stick around and learn something.

 

[BretMan]

I think I found what you're talking about in rule 1, definition of a catch.

Looks to me like the rule needs clarification, unless there is somewhere else that states the ball must be securely held in the hand or glove for a force out. A catch isn't a mandatory part of a force out.

Try Rule 1 (Definitions)...look up "Tag".

 

[PracticeSquad7]

From the sounds of it, in order to truly have possession of the ball (s)he would have to grasp it with his hand, which would define possession, or somehow move it to his/her glove in which case (s)he would momentarily lose what seems to be possession of the ball. If (s)he doesn't have it in his/her glove or hand before the runner touches the base he is safe.

NFHS 2012 Softball Rules book (ASA) -

Rule 2-8.1 - "A catch is the act of a fielder who, with her hand(s) and/or glove/mitt, securely gains possession of a batted, pitched or thrown ball."
Rule 2-8.5a - "A catch shall not be credited if: a fielder catches a batted, pitched or thrown ball with anything other than her hand(s) or glove/mitt in its proper place."
Rule 2-38.2 "A force out is a putout during which an offensive player who is being forced to advance is tagged out, or is put out by a fielder who holds the ball while touching the base toward which the forced runner is advancing."

*this is assuming the 1b is still on the base.

Define hold. If the 1b is able to control the ball between the glove and chest and not fumble around with it, I would call the runner out if this is demonstrated before the runner reaches the base. Unless I'm completely misguided here, no where in the book does it say you have to catch the ball, just hold it. In this description it sounds like he is holding the ball between his glove and chest. Maybe somebody with more experience can correct me if I'm wrong?

 

[EsqUmp]

Define hold. If the 1b is able to control the ball between the glove and chest and not fumble around with it, I would call the runner out if this is demonstrated before the runner reaches the base. Unless I'm completely misguided here, no where in the book does it say you have to catch the ball, just hold it. In this description it sounds like he is holding the ball between his glove and chest. Maybe somebody with more experience can correct me if I'm wrong?

You'll have to read "catch/no catch" in conjunction with "tag" (also in the definitions) in order to get a full idea of the rule.

TAG: A legal tag is the act of a defensive player touching a base with any part of the body while HOLDING THE BALL SECURELY AND FIRMLY IN THE HAND OR GLOVE.

"Tag" would play a bigger role if it was the defender who fielded the ball and bobbled it while going to the base.

The key is this: If something other than the hand or glove is needed to secure control of the ball, you don't yet have possession for an out.

Demonstrating control after the runner crosses the base is too late. By rule, that's really no different than the ball one hopping right before it reaches F3 covering 1st. At the time that ball short hops and hits the ground, it's really no different than the play described here. If the defender doesn't securely hold the ball yet, there's no out.

NOTE: This is not to say that just because the defender has the glove open a bit and rested up against his/her body that she can't have possession. It's quite possible that she will slowly move the glove away from her body after the "play" and not do anything to alter the "control" of the ball within the glove. If the ball is securely in the glove/hand at this time, you will likely have a good out.

 

[BretMan]

Good explanation...maybe they'll believe it now that the same answer has been posted a half-dozen times...or maybe not...

 

[PracticeSquad7]

Good explanation...maybe they'll believe it now that the same answer has been posted a half-dozen times...or maybe not...

I'm new to umping and still learning. A wise man once told me "the day you think you know everything is the day you become stupid." Keep that in mind.

Thank you for the thorough explanation EsqUmp. I pulled out my baseball and softball casebooks and couldn't find anything close to this situation in either.

 

[BretMan]

I pulled out my baseball and softball casebooks and couldn't find anything close to this situation in either.

Look a little harder...

Case Play 2.9.6

B1 hits a ground ball to F6 who throws to first. F3 juggles the ball so that it rolls up her arm. She clamps the ball to the body by an elbow or forearm just as B1 touches first.

RULING: B1 is safe. It is not a catch until the ball is securely in a hand or glove.

 

[PracticeSquad7]

Look a little harder...

Case Play 2.9.6

B1 hits a ground ball to F6 who throws to first. F3 juggles the ball so that it rolls up her arm. She clamps the ball to the body by an elbow or forearm just as B1 touches first.

RULING: B1 is safe. It is not a catch until the ball is securely in a hand or glove.

It was late, cut me some slack.

 

[COKEMAN]

C. When, on a force play, a fielder contacts the base while holding the ball, or tags the runner before the runner reaches the base. If the forced runner, after touching the next base, retreats for any reason towards the base first occupied, the force play is reinstated and the runner may again be put out if the defense tags the runner or the base to which the runner is forced.

I don't intend to hijack this thread, but this intrigued me. Does this mean that if a batter makes it to 1B, takes a turn toward 2B, but stops and starts to go back to 1B that a throw back to the first-baseman puts him out by simply tagging the base? Or if a runner forced to 2B, overruns the bag and starts back, then just tagging the bag is an out? I always thought once you got to the bag the force was essentially off and the runner had to be tagged once a turn over overrun occurred.

Feel free to move this to it's own topic if too far derailed

 

[TheLacinStation]

I don't intend to hijack this thread, but this intrigued me. Does this mean that if a batter makes it to 1B, takes a turn toward 2B, but stops and starts to go back to 1B that a throw back to the first-baseman puts him out by simply tagging the base? Or if a runner forced to 2B, overruns the bag and starts back, then just tagging the bag is an out? I always thought once you got to the bag the force was essentially off and the runner had to be tagged once a turn over overrun occurred.

Feel free to move this to it's own topic if too far derailed

No. Note that he must retreat to the first base occupied, where you started. Think of a runner at 1B. He advances to 2B, touches the base, then for whatever reason starts back toward 1B. At this point the force is reinstated.

 

[irishmafia]

I don't intend to hijack this thread, but this intrigued me. Does this mean that if a batter makes it to 1B, takes a turn toward 2B, but stops and starts to go back to 1B that a throw back to the first-baseman puts him out by simply tagging the base? Or if a runner forced to 2B, overruns the bag and starts back, then just tagging the bag is an out? I always thought once you got to the bag the force was essentially off and the runner had to be tagged once a turn over overrun occurred.

Feel free to move this to it's own topic if too far derailed

Yeah, it should be moved.....to the dumpster.

Come on, people, this is common stuff that most people learn by the age of 7-8, when they first start playing ball.

 

[goro25]

Good explanation...maybe they'll believe it now that the same answer has been posted a half-dozen times...or maybe not...

It's not a matter of believing it, I didn't doubt you were right. I just wanted to see the rule.

 

[ScootDog]

And don't throw it down peoples throats, I'll accept examples and deffinitions, but not @#$%ing idiots. But thanks for showing your age.

I hope that you aren't an ump 'cuz you have blown your 2 chances today so far.

 

[jsam21238]

This is the reason I left this forum a couple years ago, glad to see things havent changed much.

When you answer a question wrong, after the question has been answered twice today, and insist that the answers are correct, what do you expect from us?

 

[x25]

When did I insist my answers were correct?

So answering in the definite, without any qualification ("the rules do not say ... ") isn't insistent?

 

[bomboi]

This is the reason I was banned from the forum a couple years ago, glad to see things havent changed much.

fixed it for ya

 

[jsam21238]

When did I insist my answers were correct?

In responses in the IFF thread where someone stated that the LF could catch a ball and still qualify for IFF. Your response was a "No that's not correct". After that post... Responses to you in posts 8 and 10 prove you are wrong and then in post 11 you continue to disregard everything until your last sentence.

 

[jsam21238]

Quote: Originally Postedby TXOutlaws Infield fly can becalled with a ball hit to the left fielder...it doesn't have to be just infield.

KansasSoftball:
No that is not correct

Saved before you delete that too

 

[Deerock]

What if you dont have hands? ijs... ASA's rule is discriminatory against those with disabilites.