ASA Overthrow Exception

[hookumsnivy]

There have been many threads on overthrows and reading through the threads that quoted the rulebook I noticed something subtle but potentially very meaningful:

When the ball is live and is overthrown or is blocked:
EFFECT: All runners shall be awarded two bases. The award shall be governed
by the position of the runners when the ball left the felder’s hand.

One of the more established umps on here specifically mentioned that it is the position of the runner that determines the award (like the rule states) and not the last base touched at the time of the throw. This is relevant when a runner rounds a base without actually touching it.

However, there is an exception that struck me as odd:

EXCEPTION:
1. When a felder loses possession of the ball, and the ball leaves live ball
territory or becomes blocked.
EFFECT: Each runner is awarded one base from the last base touched
at the time the ball entered the dead ball area or became blocked.

The above exception specifically states that the award is from the last base touched.

I find that to be very interesting and it brings me to this question (purely hypothetical):
Scenario:
R1 on 1st, Batter hits a line drive to the gap. R1 rounds 2nd without touching it and heads to 3rd. BR rounds 1st without touching it and heads to 2nd. Throw comes in to 3rd base from the OF. 3rd baseman attempts a swipe tag on R1, loses the ball and it rolls out of play. At the time the ball went into dead ball territory R1 touched 3rd, BR has not yet touched 2nd.

What are the runners awarded by the umpire? Technically speaking R1 would be awarded home because he touched 3rd (though if he doesn't go back to touch 2nd the defense could appeal), and BR would be awarded 1st since he hasn't touched a base yet. However, missing a base is an appeal play by the defense so does the ump award BR 1st base or 2nd base? Seems like a contradiction of rules because we typically make the call based on the assumption that the base was touched unless appealed.

 

[railguy]

Craziest thing I have ever heard!

 

[hookumsnivy]

Craziest thing I have ever heard!

Obviously it's a made up scenario, and it would be extremely rare. I just thought it was interesting and would bring about a good discussion.

 

[bb666b77]

but as stated by the umps here,all runners are presume to have touch the bases as they pass them whether they have or not,so i would think thats how any bases would be awarded.now if the runners do not go back and touch any base they have missed they would be subject to a missed base appeal.

 

[RDD15]

From my understanding, if a runner passes a base without touching it, the umpire applies other rules under the assumption that the base was touched until the defense properly appeals. This is most obvious when you think of a scenario where the runner scores after missing a bag. You must touch all four bases in order to score a run. The umpire is operating as if all four bases were touched (assuming no appeal) and counting the run.

Hope that makes sense. Just my belief, I could be totally wrong.

 

[hookumsnivy]

but as stated by the umps here,all runners are presume to have touch the bases as they pass them whether they have or not,so i would think thats how any bases would be awarded.now if the runners do not go back and touch any base they have missed they would be subject to a missed base appeal.

I would typically agree, but then why in the 1st rule does it specify position of the runners and not by the last base touched? Why is the language different in this case? Is it a mistake in the language that wasn't caught or is it supposed to be taken literally?

There is another exception where it also specifically states the last base touched:

If the ball becomes blocked due to offensive equipment not involved in
the game.
EFFECT: The ball is dead and runners are returned to the last base
touched at the time of the blocked ball.

 

[BretMan]

I'd be willing to bet that there's no real difference here other than a gramatical or editorial one. I can't think of any situation where "the runner's position" would result in any different base award than "last base touched".

(And by the way, you missed a couple more rules about base awards that refer to the "last base touched". In fact, it looks like there are quite a few rules that use that term and only ONE that uses the phrase "the runner's position.)

No way of knowing for sure why this is worded differently. Maybe someone who's been around longer than I have will chip in with an explanation (I suspect they will!).

My speculative guess would be that at one point in time they all read the same (last base touched) and the overthrow rule was modified to clarify that the runner's direction has nothing to do with the award and neither would going back to tag a base left early on a caught fly ball.

 

[irishmafia]

There have been many threads on overthrows and reading through the threads that quoted the rulebook I noticed something subtle but potentially very meaningful:

One of the more established umps on here specifically mentioned that it is the position of the runner that determines the award (like the rule states) and not the last base touched at the time of the throw. This is relevant when a runner rounds a base without actually touching it.

However, there is an exception that struck me as odd:

The above exception specifically states that the award is from the last base touched.

This is one of the reasons umpires don't think players should be carrying around rule books. The reason: There is more to the rules and applications than black letters on a page in a book. And the rules are not this one or that one, but a unit as a total.

Now, if you read 8.3.B you will find the answer.

 

[hookumsnivy]

This is one of the reasons umpires don't think players should be carrying around rule books. The reason: There is more to the rules and applications than black letters on a page in a book. And the rules are not this one or that one, but a unit as a total.

Now, if you read 8.3.B you will find the answer.

Thank you. There it is in black and white.
So the difference in the language is completely meaningless. Just a weird inconsistency in language and nothing more.

 

[BretMan]

It does seem strange that there are about a half dozen other rules that refer to a runner's "last base touched", yet this single rule uses the phrase "the runner's position". Why wouldn't they all be the same? In application, they mean the same thing. That's what makes me think the wording in the overthrow rule is the result of some long ago editorial tinkering- one of those "changes" that wasn't really a change, to clarify some perceived flaw in the wording.

 

[irishmafia]

Thank you. There it is in black and white.
So the difference in the language is completely meaningless. Just a weird inconsistency in language and nothing more.

Unfortunately, when rules are changed or added, different verbiage occassionally gets through unnoticed simply because the author of each isn't the same and housekeeping doesn't always catch it.

 

[EAJuggalo]

Bretman, what about in this scenario? R1 takes off from 1st base at the crack of the bat, the LF makes the catch but R1 is between second and third by this time. On his way back to first he must touch second, so if the ball goes out of play the last touched base is second but his position is between first and second.

 

[irishmafia]

Bretman, what about in this scenario? R1 takes off from 1st base at the crack of the bat, the LF makes the catch but R1 is between second and third by this time. On his way back to first he must touch second, so if the ball goes out of play the last touched base is second but his position is between first and second.

As stated a few times, when a runner passes a base they are considered to have touched the base.

And as has also been stated a few times, the award is based upon the position of the runner at the time the throw was released.

Wherever your runner was standing at the time the outfielder let go of the ball, add two bases from that position.

On a throw, the time the ball leaves playable territory is irrelevant.