Pitched ball bounces, hit back into fair territory. Called dead and a strike ?

J

JN137

Active Member
This happened faster than I can type it or you can read it, so bare with me here..

Pitcher tosses the ball, probably a foot short of the plate. Umpire says "ball, short" as the ball hits the ground, simultaneously the batter starts casually swinging and hits the ball off the bounce straight back to the pitcher. Ball is then called dead and a strike. Is this the correct call?
 
MaverickAH

MaverickAH

Well-Known Member
The short answer is 'NO'.

If we're talking slow pitch, any pitch that bounces short of home plate is immediately dead & ruled a ball. Since it is immediately dead, nothing else can happen.

If we're talking fast pitch, the ball is still live & can be hit by the batter. The batter is then liable for the result of their swing. In this case, it would be an out if caught on the fly by the pitcher of if put out at 1st base if the ball was hit on the ground.
 
EAJuggalo

EAJuggalo

Addicted to Softballfans
Or it's USSSA. Direct from the head of officiating last year. It is legal to hit it on the hop.
 
F

fthrmulcahy

The Veteran
Got burned by this my first year working USSSA. Now I don’t open my mouth when a pitch bounces short in case a batter swings. They can figure out it’s a ball.
 
T

TomicSquad13

Addicted to Softballfans
Its probably a local league rule but if you hit a ball that bounces even if its before the plate its a dead ball out.
 
NCASAUmp

NCASAUmp

Un-Retired
DeputyUICHousto said:
NCASA, what rule are you using to make this ruling?
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It's umpire's judgment as to whether a batter was attempting to strike at a pitched ball vs a ball that's already hit the ground.

It doesn't change the fact that the batter can't legally hit the ball into play. It'd still be a dead ball and a strike.
 
D

DeputyUICHousto

Addicted to Softballfans
NCASAUmp said:
It's umpire's judgment as to whether a batter was attempting to strike at a pitched ball vs a ball that's already hit the ground.

It doesn't change the fact that the batter can't legally hit the ball into play. It'd still be a dead ball and a strike.
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Why would this be a strike? Once the ball hits the ground it's dead.
 
D

DeputyUICHousto

Addicted to Softballfans
NCASAUmp said:
So if the batter swings at the ball and hits it immediately after it’s hit the ground (maybe a couple inches off the ground), you’re going to call it dead and not call a strike?
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Why would you call it a strike? The ball hit the ground in front of the plate? By rules it is a dead ball. And if he hit the ball you can't call it a strike even if you don't rule that the ball is dead because it hit the ground. He didn't miss the ball.
 
I

irishmafia

Addicted to Softballfans
DeputyUICHousto said:
Why would you call it a strike? The ball hit the ground in front of the plate? By rules it is a dead ball. And if he hit the ball you can't call it a strike even if you don't rule that the ball is dead because it hit the ground. He didn't miss the ball.
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Does contacting the ground or plate negate an attempt to strike the ball initiated prior to it becoming dead?
 
NCASAUmp

NCASAUmp

Un-Retired
irishmafia said:
Does contacting the ground or plate negate an attempt to strike the ball initiated prior to it becoming dead?
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^^^^
This.

I'm not talking about the batter trying to hit a pitch that clearly hit the ground well before he started his swing. I'm talking about a batter trying to hit the ball before it touched the ground, but didn't make contact until after it touched the ground. He still struck at the pitch, but could not legally hit the ball.
 
J

JackoDaddy5

Addicted to Softballfans
This has me questioning things. As SOON as the ball hits the ground, it's a dead ball... You can't swing, nor hit, nor even attempt to swing at a dead ball, because it's dead... Yeah? My thought process says that if it's dead, it doesn't matter if he was swinging, because the ball becomes dead IMMEDIATELY upon hitting the ground. And, you can't do anything to a dead ball, no matter what is already in progress....is that what you were getting at UIC? I do see what NCASA and Irish are saying. I also see what you're saying.
 
I

irishmafia

Addicted to Softballfans
JackoDaddy5 said:
This has me questioning things. As SOON as the ball hits the ground, it's a dead ball... You can't swing, nor hit, nor even attempt to swing at a dead ball, because it's dead... Yeah? My thought process says that if it's dead, it doesn't matter if he was swinging, because the ball becomes dead IMMEDIATELY upon hitting the ground. And, you can't do anything to a dead ball, no matter what is already in progress....is that what you were getting at UIC? I do see what NCASA and Irish are saying. I also see what you're saying.
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So, if a batter starts a swing prior to being hit by the ball it doesn't count since the ball is immediately dead? That, too, would be wrong. It is not uncommon to see a player offer at a pitch that does not clear the plate. It is a strike
 
J

JackoDaddy5

Addicted to Softballfans
irishmafia said:
So, if a batter starts a swing prior to being hit by the ball it doesn't count since the ball is immediately dead? That, too, would be wrong. It is not uncommon to see a player offer at a pitch that does not clear the plate. It is a strike
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Right, I agree with you there. But my thought was that the batter, nor ball, did anything that would constitute calling it a strike.
The ball didn’t cross the strike zone, the batter didnt offer at the ball and miss which would constitute a strike call, it wasn’t hit foul (since it was dead before contact). I would think the batter would have to have swing, AND missed before the ball hit the ground and became dead, so that the miss offering and miss was already in place. Right?
I just can’t see anything that would allow a strike to be called.

Now, I’m only arguing because I’m trying to put the rules as wrote into place, and not what seems like opinions. That being said, you two are absolutely the most respected umpires here, and I do believe that you’re probably right... but, can you show me? Not say ‘just because’. What about that constitutes a strike if he hasn’t missed the ball already when it became dead?
 
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I

irishmafia

Addicted to Softballfans
JackoDaddy5 said:
Right, I agree with you there. But my thought was that the batter, nor ball, did anything that would constitute calling it a strike.
The ball didn’t cross the strike zone, the batter didnt offer at the ball and miss which would constitute a strike call, it wasn’t hit foul (since it was dead before contact). I would think the batter would have to have swing, AND missed before the ball hit the ground and became dead, so that the miss offering and miss was already in place. Right?
I just can’t see anything that would allow a strike to be called.

Now, I’m only arguing because I’m trying to put the rules as wrote into place, and not what seems like opinions. That being said, you two are absolutely the most respected umpires here, and I do believe that you’re probably right... but, can you show me? Not say ‘just because’. What about that constitutes a strike if he hasn’t missed the ball already when it became dead?
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This part of the conversation comes from and is supporting NCASA noting that if a batter swings at the pitch prior to touching the ground or plate it is still a strike.
 
D

DeputyUICHousto

Addicted to Softballfans
So if you read Rule 7, Section 5B "A Ball on the Batter" is says "(Slow Pitch) For each legally pitched ball that does not enter the strike zone, touches the ground before reaching home plate, or touches home plate, and the batter does not swing. Any pitched ball that hits the ground or plate cannot be legally swung at by the batter. If the batter swings at a pitch after the ball hits the ground or plate, it is a ball. EFFECT: The ball is dead and runners may not advance."

I see no way you can call this a strike.
 
jbo911

jbo911

Super Moderator
Staff member
He didn't swing after the ball hit the ground. He swung before it hit the ground.

This isn't common sense, or my thought process is, etc territory. This is where people get screwed up on the rules. They're written how they're written for a reason, and very little if it is meant to be subjective.

Baseball, and subsequently softball rules, rarely make sense outside if the game. Just try explaining the rules to someone that's never played if you don't understand what I mean.
 
D

DeputyUICHousto

Addicted to Softballfans
This makes no sense...let me ask this. If the pitch is in the air and the batter is in the middle of his swing and a child runs onto the field and I yell dead ball then its a strike? No way. The ball is dead when its dead. The swing means nothing.
 
J

JackoDaddy5

Addicted to Softballfans
I do agree that if he had 'completed' his swing, before the ball had hit the ground, it would indeed be a strike. Right? Once the offering is complete. But, I cannot see how it can be called a strike if the bat hasn't already passed the zone of contacting the ball.
I'd relate it to perhaps like where a check swing might be called? If it's crossed the point of a check swing BEFORE it hits the ground, then I'd be ok with the strike call.
 
jbo911

jbo911

Super Moderator
Staff member
DeputyUICHousto said:
This makes no sense...let me ask this. If the pitch is in the air and the batter is in the middle of his swing and a child runs onto the field and I yell dead ball then its a strike? No way. The ball is dead when its dead. The swing means nothing.
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If you're going to make up a hypothetical about some stupid play them you should probably get the timing right and not specifically pick a time where the qualifying factor is you saying dead ball.

If my post wasn't clear, I don't care about your feelings, and I am in no way saying it makes sense. I went out of my way to say more often than not baseball rules don't make sense.

If you call illegal, and the batter swings and misses, what's the call? In asa?
 
jbo911

jbo911

Super Moderator
Staff member
JackoDaddy5 said:
This isn't true either though, he 'started his swing' is not the same as 'he swung at the ball'.
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Were you there during ncasa's hypothetical that clearly isn't real? Then stop the semantic bs.

The rule sounds like it's written so that whether or not the ball strikes the bay or the ground first isn't a matter of contention for people to argue. In a bang bang situation, the ump doesn't have to worry about whether the ball hit the ground first. This is an assumption I'm making to help you understand what he's saying.

If he quoted the rule book for you it would probably help. Rules are written very specifically to cover every scenario, not just the ones that make sense.
 
J

JackoDaddy5

Addicted to Softballfans
jbo911 said:
Were you there during ncasa's hypothetical that clearly isn't real? Then stop the semantic bs.

The rule sounds like it's written so that whether or not the ball strikes the bay or the ground first isn't a matter of contention for people to argue. In a bang bang situation, the ump doesn't have to worry about whether the ball hit the ground first. This is an assumption I'm making to help you understand what he's saying.

If he quoted the rule book for you it would probably help. Rules are written very specifically to cover every scenario, not just the ones that make sense.
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We are having a decent conversation here. I'm not playing semantic bs. I'm being completely real. If the ball is 2 inches from the ground, and the batter 'starts his swing', are you going to call a strike? No, and I think NCASA said that. But, if you started it when the ball was 2 feet from the ground, and made contact with it after it hit the ground, he said in that case, he would call it a strike. Right?

So, I was trying to figure out a way for it to make sense, but also seeing UIC's position,and my initial thoughts. In my opinion (I have passed the local and state umpire requirements, tests, and ump recreational games (no tournaments because I'm usually playing)), so, in just in my opinion...there is a judgment call there that HE is making, that neither me, nor UIC agree with. There isn't a HARD RULE that applies to that very specific play. I cannot find a case play that references it. So, with that being said, it's left to the umpires judgement. So, what I'm justifying, is that if he had already passed the ball, or offered completely at the ball BEFORE it hits the ground, where an umpire WOULD call a check swing a strike. Then, I'd agree with the Strike call. Otherwise, I think it's a dead ball, and a Ball on the batter.
 
jbo911

jbo911

Super Moderator
Staff member
JackoDaddy5 said:
We are having a decent conversation here. I'm not playing semantic bs. I'm being completely real. If the ball is 2 inches from the ground, and the batter 'starts his swing', are you going to call a strike? No, and I think NCASA said that. But, if you started it when the ball was 2 feet from the ground, and made contact with it after it hit the ground, he said in that case, he would call it a strike. Right?

So, I was trying to figure out a way for it to make sense, but also seeing UIC's position,and my initial thoughts. In my opinion (I have passed the local and state umpire requirements, tests, and ump recreational games (no tournaments because I'm usually playing)), so, in just in my opinion...there is a judgment call there that HE is making, that neither me, nor UIC agree with. There isn't a HARD RULE that applies to that very specific play. I cannot find a case play that references it. So, with that being said, it's left to the umpires judgement. So, what I'm justifying, is that if he had already passed the ball, or offered completely at the ball BEFORE it hits the ground, where an umpire WOULD call a check swing a strike. Then, I'd agree with the Strike call. Otherwise, I think it's a dead ball, and a Ball on the batter.
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It is semantics because that isn't the sticking point. He's obviously talking about two full swings.

If you want to make a judgement call based on some interpretation of the rules, then you need to say that. You need to state the rule, and explain your thought process. You say there's a judgement call to be made, what judgement call? UIC states a rule that says you can't swing after the ball hits the ground, If a batter swings at a ball after it hit the ground or the plate it's a ball. It doesn't say anything about someone that swings before the ball hits the ground.
 
R

RNRPLZ

Member
NCASAUmp said:
It's umpire's judgment as to whether a batter was attempting to strike at a pitched ball vs a ball that's already hit the ground.

It doesn't change the fact that the batter can't legally hit the ball into play. It'd still be a dead ball and a strike.
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If anything the batter could possibly be called for unsportsmanlike conduct. Had the pitcher not been alert this could have resulted in an injury. USA/ASA dead ball if hits in front or on the plate. Even if seniors using the mat. After it hits the plate or mat dead ball. I see no other ruling stating otherwise
 
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