Player assisted HR or Double call.
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Country469
Well-Known Member
It would be an error with a 4 base award imo
irishmafia
Addicted to Softballfans
Speaking USA, this is a two-base award (RS 26.c)
not according to this... and your RS26C is only for games played on shortened fields
Section 8. HOME RUN RULE
NOTE:
a. Any fair fly ball touched by a defensive player that clears or has cleared over the fence in fair territory, should be declared a fourbase
award and shall not be included in the total of over-the-fence home runs
RS
26. HOME RUNS / FOUR BASE AWARDS / GROUND RULE DOUBLES.
When a ball does not hit the ground and leaves the playing field in fair territory,
it is a home run. In Slow Pitch, any fair fly ball touched by a defensive
player on either side of the fence that clears or has cleared the fence in fair
territory, should be declared a four-base award and shall not be included
in the total of over-the-fence home runs.
A. A batted ball hitting a foul pole above the fence is a home run.
B. A batted ball hitting the top of the fence and bouncing over in fair territory
is a home run.
C. A batted ball going over the fence in fair territory at a distance shorter
than the recommended minimum distance is a two base award.
D. A batted ball hitting a defensive player in fair territory, but going over
the fence in foul territory is a two base award.
E. A batted ball that leaves the park in fair territory and first touches the
ground in foul territory is a home run.
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irishmafia
Addicted to Softballfans
No such condition set in the 2019 book, page 133
irish ...you are right I don't have the 2019 edition... it's a few years old.... so are you saying that there is no longer a HR explanation anywhere in Rule 5?? and that they removed the HOME RUNS / FOUR BASE AWARDS / GROUND RULE DOUBLES. explanations in RS?? ...or that they are not on pg 133... please paste the rule where you state that it's a 2 base award on a normal size field
Country469
Well-Known Member
I don't understand how the foul poul (lol) should matter in this scenario.
Ball touches fielder in fair play, live ball correct?
goes over fence in fair is now 2 bases in USA or 4? If its 4 it should be 2 for the foul fence too the fairness of the ball has already been established, the error takes the ball out play in the same manner, should be the same aware imo?
DeputyUICHousto
Addicted to Softballfans
Irish is correct. A batted ball that is touched by a defender in fair territory that then goes over the fence in foul territory is a 2 base award. See RS 26C.
Country469
Well-Known Member
whoever wrote that rule is a moran
irishmafia
Addicted to Softballfans
Why?
Country469
Well-Known Member
once the ball is touched in fair play by a fielder, the foul pole is moot and has nothing to do with play at all anymore. If a player knocks a live, fair ball, out of play the penalty should be the same no matter where its at. 4 base error or 2 base, but it should be consistent across the board,
Joker
Well-Known Member
ball bounces off canseco's head and over the fence in fair territory = home run
ball bounces off canseco's head in fair territory and goes over the fence in foul territory, you calling that a home run?
if a normal batted ball clears the fence in foul territory, it's not a home run
but, the ball still contacted a player and/or the field in fair territory and bounced over the fence, out of play. sure sounds like a ground rule double to me
ball bounces off canseco's head in fair territory and goes over the fence in foul territory, you calling that a home run?
if a normal batted ball clears the fence in foul territory, it's not a home run
but, the ball still contacted a player and/or the field in fair territory and bounced over the fence, out of play. sure sounds like a ground rule double to me
Country469
Well-Known Member
I would call neither a home run.
Error, with whatever base award it is. And when its an award based on carrying or moving the ball out of play, it should be consistent across the board. It would make more sense for them ALL to be a ground rule double rather than a 4 bases on a ball landing over a fair fence.
I fail to see how the play is any different if you are in the lf corner, canseco scenario, and it goes fair vs foul by a foot or whatever.
The chance it happens to an infielder or any other position is either so low it laughable or moot based on field dimensions and design.
Error, with whatever base award it is. And when its an award based on carrying or moving the ball out of play, it should be consistent across the board. It would make more sense for them ALL to be a ground rule double rather than a 4 bases on a ball landing over a fair fence.
I fail to see how the play is any different if you are in the lf corner, canseco scenario, and it goes fair vs foul by a foot or whatever.
The chance it happens to an infielder or any other position is either so low it laughable or moot based on field dimensions and design.
Iceman6409
Active Member
I would have called it a ground rule double. But ground rule double or 2 base award is essentially the same thing.
Joker
Well-Known Member
fair or foul makes a difference in all other scenarios, but shouldn't in this one? trolling dumbass irish is fun but this makes no sense
Country469
Well-Known Member
foul in any other scenario is just a foul ball tho, ie you touch it in foul territory first its just a foul ball. We have that rule clearly defined.
Joker
Well-Known Member
a. Any fair fly ball touched by a defensive player that clears or has cleared over the fence in fair territory, should be declared a fourbase
award and shall not be included in the total of over-the-fence home runs
When a ball does not hit the ground and leaves the playing field in fair territory,
it is a home run. In Slow Pitch, any fair fly ball touched by a defensive
player on either side of the fence that clears or has cleared the fence in fair
territory, should be declared a four-base award and shall not be included
in the total of over-the-fence home runs.
award and shall not be included in the total of over-the-fence home runs
When a ball does not hit the ground and leaves the playing field in fair territory,
it is a home run. In Slow Pitch, any fair fly ball touched by a defensive
player on either side of the fence that clears or has cleared the fence in fair
territory, should be declared a four-base award and shall not be included
in the total of over-the-fence home runs.
Country469
Well-Known Member
yeah, Im maintaining it should be a 4 bases award all the time as the foul pole is meaningless to the scenario other than just writing a rule to write another rule. The "foul" line/pole/etc is meaningless to the play scenario at that time.
Joker
Well-Known Member
a ball that never touches the ground and goes over the wall on the fly in fair territory is a home run
a ball that never touches the ground and goes over the wall on the fly in foul territory is not a home run (foul ball)
a ball that never touches the ground but hits a fielder in fair territory and goes over the wall in fair territory is a home run (4 bases)
a ball that never touches the ground but hits a fielder in fair territory and goes over the wall in foul territory is not a home run (2 bases)
see how that tracks?
a ball that never touches the ground and goes over the wall on the fly in foul territory is not a home run (foul ball)
a ball that never touches the ground but hits a fielder in fair territory and goes over the wall in fair territory is a home run (4 bases)
a ball that never touches the ground but hits a fielder in fair territory and goes over the wall in foul territory is not a home run (2 bases)
see how that tracks?
Country469
Well-Known Member
I see that is the rules. yes
logically speaking its still not logical, at all.
logically speaking its still not logical, at all.
Country469
Well-Known Member
if the same scenario, had the ball hit the ground first, the rules don't change. so they shouldn't if its doesn.t
fair ball both ways.
fair ball both ways.
EAJuggalo
Addicted to Softballfans
I have argued this with State UIC's in both USA and USSSA as well as with the National Director of Officials for USSSA. The ruling in both associations is consistent, if the ball is touched in fair territory but goes over the fence in foul territory it is a two base award. I feel it should be a four base award but no one in upper management agrees with me.
Country469
Well-Known Member
right.............. while I really really don't find this to be possible, the scenario allows that we at least mention it.
If you are chasing a ball down that you cannot catch, but could only tip, you'd be better off tipping it over the outfield foul fence than trying to keep in the yard. a double on a ball hit to the corner like that is best case scenario
If you are chasing a ball down that you cannot catch, but could only tip, you'd be better off tipping it over the outfield foul fence than trying to keep in the yard. a double on a ball hit to the corner like that is best case scenario
longball101
Part Time Player
It's fairly simple (pun intended) A HR or 4 base award ONLY occurs in between the 2 foul poles in fair territory. For all intended purposes, there is no "back fence" in foul territory, foul territory is a straight line from home plate to the foul pole, all of which is considered a "side fence" per say
Just returned to this post after being away for awhile. It seems that the popular answer to my question is that if the player assisted ball clears the outfield fence but in foul territory it is a 2 base award and not a 4 base award. I this ever occurs when I am behind the plate I will go with the 2 base scenario. Thanks for all your input
PS----If I make that call and get any flack I will just have to put the blame on ya all as I think it should be a 4 base error or award or whatever.
PS----If I make that call and get any flack I will just have to put the blame on ya all as I think it should be a 4 base error or award or whatever.
Like I said, I am new to umpiring and have never taken these tests. Our softball league hold clinics every year to certify the umps. I think they use ussa and a combination of several other organizations rules which were adopted by out league.